Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[truckdiagnostics]

Near as I can figure solar, wind and the renewables are increasing utility rates through various hidden and in some cases not so hidden subsidies. Some on here have ranted and raved about how solar has saved THEM so much energy usage. Saving money on an electric bill does not make it renewable. Near as I can figure out that savings is over time and was at very high initial investment. I am all for saving money and all the power to you. Burning wood is a renewable resource and saves money also. Don't see where it is increasing my electrical rates.
We do a lot of work with the elderly and poor. Walked into a home it was dark as ****, tried to turn on the lights. Come to find out there was no light bulbs, long and short of it they didn't care to spend the high price on light bulbs and couldn't afford the electric. I don't think that elderly couple warped in blankets sitting in the dark could give a rip about solar or wind power or how it is saving the environment. If wind and solar are the next best thing since sliced bread, they need to stand on there own and not on the backs of the poor and middle class! I don't see a lot of solar panels on the houses in the poor sections of town.
Fact of the matter is the old couple is getting subsides also and we can rationalize out that somehow that makes it all OK. That is the reality of the world we live in. Solar and wind is increasing electric rates(US and Canada), got that much out of what B&D is saying. Now, if that increase in rates is really saving the environment and if that savings is worth it, that is the debate. Tell that to the old couple, in the dark, warped in blankets, that it is for there grand children.
Put the solar and wind power in, I am happy that you are blessed that you can afford it, take the saving, you don't see me not taking all my tax deductions. I just wish the solar and wind power lobbies would stop blowing smoke up every-bodies butt.

 

[Redneck in training]

For of the AC load peak until 3:00PM. Solar output is dropping as the sun drops from direct inpingement to angle . A redundant generation system is required to carry the AC until 1-2hrs after sunset plus the evening cooking, laundry, lighting .

That can be solved by facing the panels rather west than south and simple thermal absorber that would run the AC few hours after sunset. Somebody need to develop such thing integrated with the AC heat pump.

 

[Redneck in training]

Near as I can figure solar, wind and the renewables are increasing utility rates through various hidden and in some cases not so hidden subsidies. Some on here have ranted and raved about how solar has saved THEM so much energy usage. Saving money on an electric bill does not make it renewable. Near as I can figure out that savings is over time and was at very high initial investment. I am all for saving money and all the power to you. Burning wood is a renewable resource and saves money also. Don't see where it is increasing my electrical rates.
We do a lot of work with the elderly and poor. Walked into a home it was dark as ****, tried to turn on the lights. Come to find out there was no light bulbs, long and short of it they didn't care to spend the high price on light bulbs and couldn't afford the electric. I don't think that elderly couple warped in blankets sitting in the dark could give a rip about solar or wind power or how it is saving the environment. If wind and solar are the next best thing since sliced bread, they need to stand on there own and not on the backs of the poor and middle class! I don't see a lot of solar panels on the houses in the poor sections of town.
Fact of the matter is the old couple is getting subsides also and we can rationalize out that somehow that makes it all OK. That is the reality of the world we live in. Solar and wind is increasing electric rates(US and Canada), got that much out of what B&D is saying. Now, if that increase in rates is really saving the environment and if that savings is worth it, that is the debate. Tell that to the old couple, in the dark, warped in blankets, that it is for there grand children.
Put the solar and wind power in, I am happy that you are blessed that you can afford it, take the saving, you don't see me not taking all my tax deductions. I just wish the solar and wind power lobbies would stop blowing smoke up every-bodies butt.

I can give you an example how burning wood increases cost of retail electric power. Our local electric coop published the financial data about twice a year for all stockholder to review. It is apparent from the data that infrastructure maintenance expenses per meter are about 80 USD. There are quite few households that have electric bill less than 80 USD (including energy charge). They use electricity just for lights and fridge I suppose. They heat with wood and have no AC. In other words they don't pay even half of their share of maintenance expenses. Should they be penalized?

 

[truckdiagnostics]

I can give you an example how burning wood increases cost of retail electric power. Our local electric coop published the financial data about twice a year for all stockholder to review. It is apparent from the data that infrastructure maintenance expenses per meter are about 80 USD. There are quite few households that have electric bill less than 80 USD (including energy charge). They use electricity just for lights and fridge I suppose. They heat with wood and have no AC. In other words they don't pay even half of their share of maintenance expenses. Should they be penalized?

Maybe? If that is the case how is, infrastructure maintenance expenses being covered when solar and wind farms are spinning the meter backwards? They are never going to be buying any electricity. At least the guy burning wood is buying some and maybe someday will be buying more. Correct me if I am wrong here isn't your statement B&D's point. Which simply put is,"if your not buying the electricity, how can they cover the cost of the stuff being there" It is kinda the same issue states are having with road maintenance. Fuel efficient vehicles are using less gas, so the tax dollars are not there to collect and maintain the roads. We can however see the poorly maintained roads. Somebody chime in here, maybe some how when the solar and wind power is spinning the meter backwards they "are" paying there fare share of the infrastructure maintenance expenses.

 

[Egon]

Btw Captain Hook was played by a Nuclear Shift Supervisor. Nights , weekends and holidays he is the Ultimate boss over all trade groups , fire and security .

The Leader is always Smarter and knows more because he is the leader, right? Compliance by those being led is mandatory, right?

 

[sodamo]

Why does my electrical bill run 18 cents per KW hr even though the wholesale average is 2-3cents?

And what was your rate vs wholesale before wind/solar?

David Sent from my iPad Air using TractorByNet

 

[shibaura_4043]

B&D , I've read several of your posts and I agree with you. I'm a system operator in Texas (ERCOT ) we have the most wind gen capacity in the country. High wind production often causes negative wholesale pricing ( typically at night)which puts all non-subsidized generation "out of the money " . The government subsidy interrupts the law of supply and demand by allowing wind to compete at an unfair economic advantage. Basically, if there wasn't a wind subsidy wind would be dispatched based of an actual energy cost curve due to economics, this would force the wholesale market to dispatch generation strictly on realistic energy costs from generation online( including wind) and the energy market would print a true cost to serve the load. Currently wind puts in a cost curve at something close to $-20-25p/mw thanks to wind subsidies. This is why you see negative pricing in the wholesale market. The good intention " green energy " also makes the grid more susceptible to collapse. Most of us in operations are concerned wind falling short to forecast and/or load greatly above forecast will eventually cause a brown or black out as we get more reliant on wind production in the shoulder months . Predominantly due to traditional generation staying offline during shoulder months because wind subsides keep wholesale pricing too cheap. Unfortunately, people unfamiliar with the electrical grid don't understand you need reliable rotational inertia online to keep the grid stable. I've seen wind produce several thousand mws under forecast needless to say that causes price volatility and reliability issues. There are reserves such as ancillaries, ERS and Load Resources to aid in system reliability which is typically capable of handling normal load forecast error, or a unit trip but it only takes one time for all these things to compound and cause a cascading outage and in my opinion relying on wind increases the risk greatly. Don't get me started on a hot summer day when you need wind to come through and wind only produces something ridiculous like 5mws . Good luck trying to convince people wind isn't a true viable option. It's easy money thanks to the government.

 

[k0ua]

Someone please explain to me why wind and solar are subsidized by the "government"? Why should the "government" which means the taxpayers, which means ME, should pay for installing systems in peoples homes and business's? Why not let them buy their own Wind and Solar systems? With their own money instead of MY money? Why not let wind and solar compete in the marketplace on an equal footing?

 

[dragoneggs]

B&D , I've read several of your posts and I agree with you. I'm a system operator in Texas (ERCOT ) we have the most wind gen capacity in the country. High wind production often causes negative wholesale pricing ( typically at night)which puts all non-subsidized generation "out of the money " . The government subsidy interrupts the law of supply and demand by allowing wind to compete at an unfair economic advantage. Basically, if there wasn't a wind subsidy wind would be dispatched based of an actual energy cost curve due to economics, this would force the wholesale market to dispatch generation strictly on realistic energy costs from generation online( including wind) and the energy market would print a true cost to serve the load. Currently wind puts in a cost curve at something close to $-20-25p/mw thanks to wind subsidies. This is why you see negative pricing in the wholesale market. The good intention " green energy " also makes the grid more susceptible to collapse. Most of us in operations are concerned wind falling short to forecast and/or load greatly above forecast will eventually cause a brown or black out as we get more reliant on wind production in the shoulder months . Predominantly due to traditional generation staying offline during shoulder months because wind subsides keep wholesale pricing too cheap. Unfortunately, people unfamiliar with the electrical grid don't understand you need reliable rotational inertia online to keep the grid stable. I've seen wind produce several thousand mws under forecast needless to say that causes price volatility and reliability issues. There are reserves such as ancillaries, ERS and Load Resources to aid in system reliability which is typically capable of handling normal load forecast error, or a unit trip but it only takes one time for all these things to compound and cause a cascading outage and in my opinion relying on wind increases the risk greatly. Don't get me started on a hot summer day when you need wind to come through and wind only produces something ridiculous like 5mws ��. Good luck trying to convince people wind isn't a true viable option. It's easy money thanks to the government.

Good post shib. As I have stated previously, subsidies do not belong in a free market production environment... period.

 

[shibaura_4043]

Someone please explain to me why wind and solar are subsidized by the "government"? Why should the "government" which means the taxpayers, which means ME, should pay for installing systems in peoples homes and business's? Why not let them buy their own Wind and Solar systems? With their own money instead of MY money? Why not let wind and solar compete in the marketplace on an equal footing?

Because wind and solar can't compete with traditional power sources like coal, nuclear or NG. Wind and solar aren't economically feasible without the subsidies. IMO The large scale solar and wind are the main source of subsidies not residential and businesses. They cost the tax payer billions in subsidies. The end result hasn't saved the consumer a dime. It's actually cost the taxpayer more money...