You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really?

   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really?
  • Thread Starter
#121  
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #122  
I'm getting a headache!
Try hanging some ballast off yer butt and see if it relieves some of the pressure from your head ;)
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #123  
wasp-nest_1592591c.jpg
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #124  
Wow--thats a lot of reading for a simple question!
Bringing up the "dynamic" vs. "static" load situation is the biggest reason I like to have plenty of counterweight. Its rare I get to work on a level surface, so there are "moments", when the loaders full and a front wheel dips, that the cumulative forces on the tractor shift towards that wheel. Its that dynamic loading of a component (tractor front axle) thats meant to "assist" with traction that concerns me the most.
The axle rating on the rears typically dramatically eclipses the front, so the more "preventative unloading" of the front axle I can have in place hanging weight off the 3pt, the less it'll encounter during my "moments".
Great thread, and especially good for newer operators who assume ballasted rear tires are a suitable replacement for adequate counterweighting. It is not. You will lose rear tire traction and shift you balance point forward far more often with 1000# of ballast in the tires and no counterweight than you would with unballasted tires and 1000# hanging 24" off the back. Simple physics, but sometimes difficult to grasp. Hope I didn't just open up another can...
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #125  
Most stable load I've carried is with the loader full of mulch in the front and the carryall about 1/2 full in the back.

The counterbalance works from the center of gravity, not the center of the rear axles. CG is in front of the axles.

Ralph
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #126  
Ralph, I don't think that is right. While counter weights will change the CG toward the rear, the fulcrum (rear axle) is the relevant pivot point for unweighting the front axle. So, the total tractor+load increases with a counterweight, but the load distribution between front and rear axles shifts more toward the rear, for a net reduction in load on the front axle.
I think the dynamic loading issue is a much more critical one...but they are linked: if you are moving too fast on rough ground with near-max load in the front, any dip or bump might overstress the front axle components. If this happens with the wheels turning (eg steered to one side), I think the probability of damage increases further still.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #127  
It certainly does, but the counter weight is factory. In this situation the counter weight would make very little difference to the front axle since it rides very close to the rear axle. With no load on forks the rear axle is carrying nearly double what the front axle is. According to the chart on the side there is still 2,600 pounds on the rear axle with rated capacity on the forks and 15,000 pounds on the front axel with rated capacity on the forks. Now that how much that is when those solid wheels hit a bump.

F=MA, I'll leave it to you to fill in suitable numbers. Bump profile and wheel radius along with forward velocity determine the vertical acceleration one might experience during a "bump".

Bump has nothing in common with "squat", unless you choose to use the words interchangeably. I prefer to use them to describe two different conditions.

Squat being the compression of compliant elements due to loading.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #128  
In all seriousness, please do take the suggestions of the helpful and knowledgeable posters above who are correctly encouraging everyone to use appropriate counter balance when doing loader, fork, or grapple work. It absolutely WILL remove stress from your front axle and make the operation much safer. The only way to be able to utilize your loader's full lift capacities safely and with minimal undue mechanical stress is to have good counter balance/weight, especially if you have a lighter tractor with less built in weight. I love the diagrams and models too!

Also - please note that 1) ballast, and 2) counter weight/balance, are not one in the same. Loaded tires or axle weights provide ballast which is additional weight on axles or ground, and this aids in stability, traction, etc... In order to properly use a loader, or a rear mower in a machine without a loader, one should apply weight either rearward of the rear axle to counter balance the loader stress on your front axle, or perhaps put suitcase weights on your front end to counter balance the tendency of the front end to lift off the ground when mowing or pulling a 10 ton trailer like the guy in the picture above.

It's not a simple concept and building a quick model might be helpful, and fun if you have kids! For those who are interested but are not physicists or engineers that understand this due to education and everyday application of force, vectors and moments, try this one on for fun.

Take two thread spools and tape Popsicle sticks across the top of each. You now have two teeter-totters. Next, overlap the Popsicle sticks a bit and tape them solidly together. You now have a representative model of your tractor. The spools represent the front and rear axles which are the fulcrums, or pivot points. You can use your fingers to test loading scenarios and and use small weight scales to show how the moments and application of force at differing distances from the front or rear axles cause changes in the relative loading of the front and rear axles as you shift the center of gravity back and forth. Every time you lift either the front or rear spool you will have found the scenario that moves the center of gravity just past the opposite axle and then places all of the weight on that other axle/spool. You could put a ton of weight over and beyond the front spool, but as long as you apply a sufficiently heavy counter weight past the rear spool, you will have NO additional force imparted to the front axle. As others have correctly stated there are nuances when motion is introduced, but if properly counter balanced they will never cause problems. Only if there is a catastrophic shifting of CG (center of gravity) due to load shift, or perhaps your rear counter weight getting hung up on a hill or ditch would you see any risks. Operate safely and it should not be a major concern.

Proper counter weighting will allow you to break your loader frame before your front axle ever gives up, and that probably only happens if "bulldozing" where you can apply more force to the loader than it was designed for. Finally, to tie this together from a semantics standpoint, one can use "ballast" in a "counter weight" application. It's just that the ballast must be placed behind the rear axle, or perhaps in front of the front axle to be able to properly counterweight the forces affecting the opposite end when pulling a heavy trailer or rear implement.


Below is a good diagram that will demonstrate how your spool model will work. In Australia they recommend against filling radial tires for ballast... They also spell "tyre" wrong. ;) I still think liquid tire ballast is best for basic stability and traction, but I have not used a tractor with radials tires, so maybe there is a point there.

Stay safe all!
ballast and counterbalance.jpg



https://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/12240/140861_Chorus_WS_Tractor.pdf
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #129  
Great question? You've added greater weight load to the front axle so the rear wheels are no longer meeting the tractor definition of 2 axles and 4 wheels in ground contact. So adding ballast in the rear allows that definition to again work. HOWEVER . . . the weight on the front axle doesn't reduce if 2 axles and 4 wheels are in ground contact and you add 400 pounds ballast to the rear.

Simply stated . . I define the ONLY safe way to operate the tractor is with 4 wheels and 2 axles in ground contact so all stress changes made that violate that rule need to be corrected first. At that point adding weight to the front axle and tires is adding weight to those. If 500 more pounds or rear ballast get added and no change to 4 wheels and 2 axle contacts . . . you have not reduced the front end axle strain . . . unless you want to create a way you can have "more than ground contact".

Jmho
You must never have been on a teeter-totter. You couldn't possible think the way you do if you had. A tractor with FEL and rear ballast (behind the rear wheel) will act the same way. Just because the wheels are all on the ground, it doesn't mean that they continue to have the same force exerted on them as weight is added at either end. I have seen my fathers old 8N with all four tires on the ground but with such light force that turning the steering wheel had no effect on turning the tractor. By your thoughts, as long as all 4 wheels are on the ground adding weight to either end has no effect. You can put enough weight on either end that the tires are on the ground, but a 6 year old could lift the light end off the ground.
I just find it hard to believe that folks cant understand simple weight and balance problems when it comes to tractors.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #130  
... I have seen my fathers old 8N with all four tires on the ground but with such light force that turning the steering wheel had no effect on turning the tractor. ...

Ah, but that's only because the rear tires squatted so much. If they had been steel tires, the only movement would have been a tiny bit from the ground squishing under them, so the front still would have been almost as heavy. :D
 

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