Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[Redneck in training]

I understand why utilities fight sources of energy they don't control. They blame PV and wind as a reason to rise rates. The fact is that rates were increasing long time before solar or wind were used for power generation. It is just matter of time when solar, wind or whatever will be used will be cheaper. Then things will start to change. New non traditional sources of energy will take over. It is inevitable the same way engines replaced horses.
Utilities are very conservative (meaning slow) in employing new technology. In example I commission control system for turbines and generators for living (among other things). We make specialized control system for juts that specific purpose. There is a lead generator in the grid system that controls frequency and the rest of machines are locked in by synchronous generators to follow it. If there is demand for more power the frequency of the whole grid decreases just slightly and all generators increase their power contribution proportional to frequency drop. It is called droop control. Now here is the kicker. The amount of power contribution is calculated and displayed as speed set point change (while the speed is for all practical purpose virtually constant) the same way it was done on old hydraulic governors 50 or so years ago. We could just easily calculate it and display it as MW or percent of generator capacity (in fact we do as a freebee to them) but they still insist on the old way. Many power stations still use very old computers without analog outputs requiring custom made controller software to integrate new controllers to the plant system. Utilities will upgrade the grid and power generation equipment some significant way only after there is no other way. Since it will be very expensive then the taxpayers will pay the bill.

 

[buickanddeere]

I understand why utilities fight sources of energy they don't control. They blame PV and wind as a reason to rise rates. The fact is that rates were increasing long time before solar or wind were used for power generation. It is just matter of time when solar, wind or whatever will be used will be cheaper. Then things will start to change. New non traditional sources of energy will take over. It is inevitable the same way engines replaced horses.
Utilities are very conservative (meaning slow) in employing new technology. In example I commission control system for turbines and generators for living (among other things). We make specialized control system for juts that specific purpose. There is a lead generator in the grid system that controls frequency and the rest of machines are locked in by synchronous generators to follow it. If there is demand for more power the frequency of the whole grid decreases just slightly and all generators increase their power contribution proportional to frequency drop. It is called droop control. Now here is the kicker. The amount of power contribution is calculated and displayed as speed set point change (while the speed is for all practical purpose virtually constant) the same way it was done on old hydraulic governors 50 or so years ago. We could just easily calculate it and display it as MW or percent of generator capacity (in fact we do as a freebee to them) but they still insist on the old way. Many power stations still use very old computers without analog outputs requiring custom made controller software to integrate new controllers to the plant system. Utilities will upgrade the grid and power generation equipment some significant way only after there is no other way. Since it will be very expensive then the taxpayers will pay the bill.

The "slow to upgrade" in the utilities is the same reason the aviation, space program and military is "slow to upgrade".
An "upgrade" has to be certified with a functional reliability as good or better than the original system when new. Certifying a new component requires engineering, verified and documented field testing and the legal department's approval.........$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Bring on your green energy with a level playing field. That would be all producers compete to generate power. Cheaper for the consumer and business customer.
Hydro electric, coal and nuclear all producing at 4-6 cents. Tell us please how it is better to pay a higher subsidized $$$ rate for unreliable green power?
The market place put an end to CRT TV's, 8 track tapes, bias tires etc and replaced with better. If solar and wind was "better" they would be able to take over the conventional energy market with "free" power.

 

[OldMcDonald]

I'm not sure I agree with you. It is because the source is solar and wind that the environment is ripe for the economic situation. Canada has jumped on the bandwagon, and so there are a number of governments and individuals that are trying to both appear to be "green" and make money off of it at the same time. It's a dangerous mix.

I see your point, but as you have said, "governments" made the decision to give subsidies for political reasons. Individuals looking to make a profit by pretending to be green are to be expected - the same people would jump on any bandwaggon they could find. Politicians and money chasers make their decisions irrespective of the source of their perceived opportunity.

"Governments" do not have to subsidise anything. The fact that yours chose to do so is not the fault of the ability of wind and solar to produce power. I have no control over the EU agricultural policy, but it paid me about €700 last year for nothing in particular - I happen to own and work a small farm. I accepted it of course. If someone paid me a lot of money to operate a wind or solar generator I would take that too.

 

[buickanddeere]

Quote " but it paid me about €700 last year for nothing in particular - I happen to own and work a small farm. I accepted it of course. If someone paid me a lot of money to operate a wind or solar generator I would take that too." Unquote

That would be the root of of many person's concerns.

 

[Egon]

[video]http://windfacts.ca/alberta[/video]

What are these folks missing or did they forget to factor in the costs of cleaning wind after it's been through the turbine?

 

[OldMcDonald]

B&D, As often is the case - please explain.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

[video]http://windfacts.ca/alberta[/video]

What are these folks missing or did they forget to factor in the costs of cleaning wind after it's been through the turbine?

Have you been to Alberta? The mess the oil industry is making around Black Diamond will take thousands of years to heal. There is no way to clean that up.

 

[buickanddeere]

Have you been to Alberta? The mess the oil industry is making around Black Diamond will take thousands of years to heal. There is no way to clean that up.

There is green grass and trees growing on old tar sand sites. What are you talking about ?

 

[Redneck in training]

The "slow to upgrade" in the utilities is the same reason the aviation, space program and military is "slow to upgrade".
An "upgrade" has to be certified with a functional reliability as good or better than the original system when new. Certifying a new component requires engineering, verified and documented field testing and the legal department's approval.........$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Bring on your green energy with a level playing field. That would be all producers compete to generate power. Cheaper for the consumer and business customer.
Hydro electric, coal and nuclear all producing at 4-6 cents. Tell us please how it is better to pay a higher subsidized $$$ rate for unreliable green power?
The market place put an end to CRT TV's, 8 track tapes, bias tires etc and replaced with better. If solar and wind was "better" they would be able to take over the conventional energy market with "free" power.

I am not saying that wind and solar will be the source of future energy. I am saying that electric power rates will go up regardless. Then if the rates will go up faster than cost of energy from sources such as solar, wind or whatever future source will be the change will be inevitable.
Utilities are subsidized too. Our electric cooperative got good chunk of government money for being part of testing future grid management equipment. It paid for "smart" meters and computer system that gathers the data from the meters nearly real time. All substation were equipped with telemetry and remote control. People also got remote switches that turn off water heaters and AC off during peak times.
Typical refinery, gas plant or chemical plant or what have you upgrades equipment every turnaround. In about every 3-4 years. There is major control system upgrade about every 10 - 15 years. They do it to increase reliability as well as profitability. New plants are heavily instrumented and automatized from get go while old plants are being retrofitted.
Utilities are monopolies so they don't do it because there is little pressure to do so. Utilities buy our electronic controllers only when the old one is so obsolete that it can't be serviced anymore.
Utilities (their business model) will change the same way it changed for telephone companies. If old AT&T would be the monopoly it used to be we will still have rotary phones, phone service will be luxury and mobile phones would be Sci Fi.
BTW mobile phone service is possible only because of government paid for initial research for equipment used for communication with space probes.

 

[Egon]

Have you been to Alberta? The mess the oil industry is making around Black Diamond will take thousands of years to heal. There is no way to clean that up.

It's the residue heavy metals and salt water products that give the real problem. Bacteria will look after the hydrocarbons given time.

Do recall the old refinery site in Calgary and ensuing cleanup?

Areas downwind of Fort Mac may also have heavy metal contamination rendering wildlife that eat the flora and fauna not fit for consumption.