Gear or Hydrostatic Transmissions for Compact Utility Tractors?

[gladehound]

Your 45 hp gear tractor cost the same or less than my 28 hp HST?

My HST tractor with fel and BH was $24K. I think your dollar to dollar comparison is flawed.

I never said it was the same or less. I said about the same and only used your tractor as the example because you are familiar with your tractor. My tractor was $19.6K with FEL & rear remote. That's probably in the neighborhood of 15% more expensive than yours would have been with only the FEL and rear remote (no BH). But for ~15% more cost you get 60% more HP in this example. The value oriented gear tractors offer substantially more tractor than similar price HST tractors. A more equal price comparison for your tractor would have been the 40hp DS4010 with no hydraulic reverser. That give you about 40% more hp in a gear tractor.

Or you can go within brand. Look at Kioti NX vs RX. You get a lot more tractor in an RX at a given price compared to an NX. And an RX certainly isn't a value tractor.

To each their own, choose what works for you. But to think that there is a small difference in hp, weight, or hydraulics from available gear vs HST tractors at a given price point is simply and uninformed position. Those who are willing to row their own gears can get a much bigger machine for their dollar. For a lot of people, the bigger value tractor isn't the best choice. For some it will be. And all should be aware of the options.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I never said it was the same or less. I said about the same and only used your tractor as the example because you are familiar with your tractor. My tractor was $19.6K with FEL & rear remote. That's probably in the neighborhood of 15% more expensive than yours would have been with only the FEL and rear remote (no BH). But for ~15% more cost you get 60% more HP in this example. The value oriented gear tractors offer substantially more tractor than similar price HST tractors. A more equal price comparison for your tractor would have been the 40hp DS4010 with no hydraulic reverser. That give you about 40% more hp in a gear tractor.

Or you can go within brand. Look at Kioti NX vs RX. You get a lot more tractor in an RX at a given price compared to an NX. And an RX certainly isn't a value tractor.

To each their own, choose what works for you. But to think that there is a small difference in hp, weight, or hydraulics from available gear vs HST tractors at a given price point is simply and uninformed position. Those who are willing to row their own gears can get a much bigger machine for their dollar. For a lot of people, the bigger value tractor isn't the best choice. For some it will be. And all should be aware of the options.

Some of your reasoning is flawed here also. I have no idea what prices are now but when I bought my 4410 with hydrostatic it was a $1400 option. I figured the extra productivity more than made up for the half horsepower loss.

You need to compare apples to apples when you compare tractors. It means nothing to compare brand a hydrostatic to brand b gear. You need to compare one specific model that's available with both transmissions. That comparison make the numbers and the percentages you are throwing around look ridiculous.

This is my opinion at this point in time and at this time of night.

 

[gladehound]

Some might say I'm not comparing apples to apples - and they are absolutely right. I'm comparing dollars to dollars.

Please tell me how it is flawed logic to compare two machines that are available for a similar price?

 

[pmsmechanic]

Please tell me how it is flawed logic to compare two machines that are available for a similar price?

This is quite easy. Brand a might be piece of junk that in a few years will be impossible to find parts for vs brand b that has a reputation for quality and supplying parts for years after ceasing production of a particular model.

Not only that, but dollars for dollars doesn't take into accounts ergonomics and ease of operation. For example I would never buy a Kubota with a treadle hydrostatic pedal. I don't like them at all. Others don't like the two pedal system and like the treadle. I sit on my tractor enough that I would gladly pay more for a tractor without a treadle.

Dollar for dollars also doesn't take into account brand loyalty which is huge for some people. I know that it isn't logical to be that way but as far as I'm concerned that's part of what makes people interesting. If we all thought the same way it would be a very boring world.

 

[gladehound]

This is quite easy. Brand a might be piece of junk that in a few years will be impossible to find parts for vs brand b that has a reputation for quality and supplying parts for years after ceasing production of a particular model.

You are correct that that is a variable in the comparison. It doesn't negate the comparison. I don't need to compare different brands to get huge difference in cost per hp. I can find examples that are nearly as dramatic within a brand and already cited one (Kioti DS [or the new DK] vs Kioti NX). Besides, neither Mahindra or Kioti are junk!

Not only that, but dollars for dollars doesn't take into accounts ergonomics and ease of operation. For example I would never buy a Kubota with a treadle hydrostatic pedal. I don't like them at all. Others don't like the two pedal system and like the treadle. I sit on my tractor enough that I would gladly pay more for a tractor without a treadle.

Comparing everything that is available for a given price interjects a huge number for variables. But if many of those variables are not important to the buyer what does it matter? For example, I don't care about suspension seats and cup holders. I do care about leg room and my tractor has a nice open platform and lots of leg room especially with my $10 seat modifications. I care about visibility to the bucket and my value tractor has better visibility than most. Another person may have the number of cup holders as their #1 criteria for buying a tractor. What criteria are important is an individual choice. So when comparing HST and gear, tractors without an HST option should not be excluded.

Dollar for dollars also doesn't take into account brand loyalty which is huge for some people. I know that it isn't logical to be that way but as far as I'm concerned that's part of what makes people interesting. If we all thought the same way it would be a very boring world.

As stated above, there are similarly large differences between HST and gear within brands. Mahindra has a huge heavy ~40hp gear only tractor for the price of some of their ~30hp HST tractors. My JD dealer couldn't get me into a 4000 series cut for the price they would give me for a 5055E power reverser. I already mentioned the Kioti NX to DS/newer DK example. The DS was replace with the newer DK which is not available with HST.

By limiting yourself to comparisons between HST & gear within the same make/model, you eliminate a vast number tractors only available with gear transmissions, which makes no sense if you are a person who would consider a gear tractor. There are many people who think value gear tractors are the perfect solution for them - these people make the works interesting too :thumbsup:

None of my reasoning is flawed. I have a different and more value minded perspective than you. If I could have bought an HST tractor with similar capability at a similar price, I would have done it in a second. But HST and similar capability was ~40% more expensive in my case. So many, that price is worth it. To me, and many others, it is not.

 

[paulfun9]

Some of your reasoning is flawed here also. I have no idea what prices are now but when I bought my 4410 with hydrostatic it was a $1400 option. I figured the extra productivity more than made up for the half horsepower loss.

You need to compare apples to apples when you compare tractors. It means nothing to compare brand a hydrostatic to brand b gear. You need to compare one specific model that's available with both transmissions. That comparison make the numbers and the percentages you are throwing around look ridiculous.

This is my opinion at this point in time and at this time of night.

So your saying I should limit my choices to one size machine? Don't know about you but I pay for things with MONEY so I believe it will always be a factor in the decision and getting more for that money weather it be in the next size up or not isn't flawed logic!

 

[4570Man]

What if you didn't need a bigger tractor?

 

[Sawyer Rob]

From what I've seen on this site, LOT'S of folks are trading up, not many are trading down.

Perhaps they should have bought bigger in the first place??

SR

 

[ovrszd]

From what I've seen on this site, LOT'S of folks are trading up, not many are trading down.

Perhaps they should have bought bigger in the first place??

SR

That's a whole new thread on it's own.....

 

[pmsmechanic]

Some interesting discussion here. I like it.

Some of us are on quite different pages here and I'm pretty sure it's going to stay that way no matter how much I argue or think I'm right so I'm just going to leave it. One point I will add is that if you don't have parts support for a tractor or anything else for that matter you essentially have a piece of junk. Unfortunately many good older tractors are turning into junk not because they are no good but because parts are no longer available.

This is only going to get worse in the future years. It's an unfortunate side effect of so many off shore manufacturers bringing in cheaper tractors to sell on the market in the last 20 years or so. Short term it's nice because it brings prices down but long term we will all suffer.