Alternative "sub-compact" tractor solutions
- Thread starter MultiMow
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Haoleguy
Platinum Member
For myself a Holder maybe in my future.......Holder Tractors: Homepage .
DavesTractor
Elite Member
Kubota has made compact tractors that are "reversers". None were sold in the USA, although a few snuck in here. Look up Kubota L1-R24. We had one once. Pretty interesting.
The issue with a brand new design is finding a market for it, even if it is "better mousetrap". Folks that buy small tractors often have wanted one for a while and have a "vision" of what they want. Half our tractors go out as tractor, loader, backhoe units - normally with a mower and a box scraper as well. Yet mini-excavator will work circles around a little CUT backhoe, a skid-steer is much better as a loader and a nice zero turn is often a better mower solution. But people want one rig, not several and they generally want a conventional tractor. In some ways, you are solving a problem that does not exist in the mind of most consumers. You would first have to get folks to buy into the "problem" of the current style of tractor....and for most folks, it's just not a problem.
Even so, I wish you luck.
The issue with a brand new design is finding a market for it, even if it is "better mousetrap". Folks that buy small tractors often have wanted one for a while and have a "vision" of what they want. Half our tractors go out as tractor, loader, backhoe units - normally with a mower and a box scraper as well. Yet mini-excavator will work circles around a little CUT backhoe, a skid-steer is much better as a loader and a nice zero turn is often a better mower solution. But people want one rig, not several and they generally want a conventional tractor. In some ways, you are solving a problem that does not exist in the mind of most consumers. You would first have to get folks to buy into the "problem" of the current style of tractor....and for most folks, it's just not a problem.
Even so, I wish you luck.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 58,044
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Good news is, I don't need my tractor to be fast
My current drive will allow for a 0-7mph working ground speed, and 0-12mph transit (no load) speed.
As for right now, I'm stuck with 37hp EFI gas power... but I'm thinking seriously about adapting a 3cyl 25hp diesel. Weight is an issue... so I'm shying away from diesel. I need more than 25hp, and that puts me in tier 4 category.... not exactly conducive to lightweight or a low CG.
Well, I'll tell you about my Power Trac experience... you don't have to read it, but I'll tell you anyway... :laughing:
I have a 2001 PT425. Its got a 25HP Kohler horizontal shaft gas engine. Meant to be run at 3600rpm. There's several variations over the years, but basically, there's a variable volume tram pump for moving the machine. There's an 8gpm @ 2500psi pump for the main hydraulic PTO (powers any implements like mowers, brush cutters, tillers, trenchers, etc...). Then there's a third pump that puts out I think about 4GPM@2500psi. That powers the steering, front end loader and what's called the AUX PTO. The AUX PTO is what operates the quick attach, and any implement with power direction control, like the left/right movement of a snowplow or broom.
There's 4 wheel motors hooked up in some sort of series parallel arrangement. This allows for turning the tractor without skidding the wheels. Its also basically all wheel drive all the time.
The variable volume pump provides power to the wheel motors. There's no "transmission" to speak of. So, there's only one speed range. There's no hi-lo for gearing. Its 8mph forward and 8mph backward. So its a compromise between speed and power.
So, to address the speed VS power issue:
I don't need power to the ground for the tasks I do. I don't pull stumps or pull a dirt plow, so traction isn't an issue. I don't "road" the machine, so I don't need high speed. At 8mph forward and reverse, its a heck of a good material mover. And its a heck of a good snow plowing machine. I usually travel around 4-5mph when mowing, so its good at that as well. Brush cutting, fork lift, loader, tiller, post-holing, etc... it just doesn't need low-end grunt.
And, my machine is only 1500# anyway. If I needed to do more, I could buy a bigger model, as they make several.
So, your 0-7 may be about the sweet spot for most tasks, but I'll guess you'll be lacking a bit of low end grunt if its hydrostatically driven. Be sure to test that part out thoroughly.
Good luck with your project. :thumbsup:
roadhunter
Elite Member
Don't get discouraged MM. There is an enormous amount of equipment made in this world and fortunately not all are tractors. There are lots of retired folks and hobby farmers who use little tractors and they work great but there are also lots of people who use other equipment, especially for mowing because tractors are not terribly good at mowing smaller areas or on slopes. Manufacturers like power trac, bobcat, and terramite all managed to make something that is similar to a tractor but has some advantages for certain applications.
All that being said it will likely take hundreds of thousands of dollars to even start to look at manufacturing a piece of equipment like that and build a prototype. My suggestion is to take your ideas and try to implement them on an existing piece of equipment first to see how well the concepts work as opposed to building something from scratch which will take an enormous amount of time, equipment, etc.. Even making a "kit" to modify an existing piece of equipment might be easier and more practical to sell. Something similar to the companies who make snow track kits for ATV's.
All that being said it will likely take hundreds of thousands of dollars to even start to look at manufacturing a piece of equipment like that and build a prototype. My suggestion is to take your ideas and try to implement them on an existing piece of equipment first to see how well the concepts work as opposed to building something from scratch which will take an enormous amount of time, equipment, etc.. Even making a "kit" to modify an existing piece of equipment might be easier and more practical to sell. Something similar to the companies who make snow track kits for ATV's.
My plans are currently for a twin Hydro-Gear 5400 setup. They're rated for 2200lb vehicle weight... though I'm trying to keep it around the 1,200 mark. They are-Well, I'll tell you about my Power Trac experience... you don't have to read it, but I'll tell you anyway... :laughing:
I have a 2001 PT425. Its got a 25HP Kohler horizontal shaft gas engine. Meant to be run at 3600rpm. There's several variations over the years, but basically, there's a variable volume tram pump for moving the machine. There's an 8gpm @ 2500psi pump for the main hydraulic PTO (powers any implements like mowers, brush cutters, tillers, trenchers, etc...). Then there's a third pump that puts out I think about 4GPM@2500psi. That powers the steering, front end loader and what's called the AUX PTO. The AUX PTO is what operates the quick attach, and any implement with power direction control, like the left/right movement of a snowplow or broom.
There's 4 wheel motors hooked up in some sort of series parallel arrangement. This allows for turning the tractor without skidding the wheels. Its also basically all wheel drive all the time.
The variable volume pump provides power to the wheel motors. There's no "transmission" to speak of. So, there's only one speed range. There's no hi-lo for gearing. Its 8mph forward and 8mph backward. So its a compromise between speed and power.
So, to address the speed VS power issue:
I don't need power to the ground for the tasks I do. I don't pull stumps or pull a dirt plow, so traction isn't an issue. I don't "road" the machine, so I don't need high speed. At 8mph forward and reverse, its a heck of a good material mover. And its a heck of a good snow plowing machine. I usually travel around 4-5mph when mowing, so its good at that as well. Brush cutting, fork lift, loader, tiller, post-holing, etc... it just doesn't need low-end grunt.
And, my machine is only 1500# anyway. If I needed to do more, I could buy a bigger model, as they make several.
So, your 0-7 may be about the sweet spot for most tasks, but I'll guess you'll be lacking a bit of low end grunt if its hydrostatically driven. Be sure to test that part out thoroughly.
Good luck with your project.
- fully (and easily) servicable
- integrated (no hydraulic hoses)
- fully independent (one housing for each side)
- belt driven
- fan cooled
- lower weight, maintenance, noise and cost than comparable pump/motor setups... and feature 2spd output without a higher parts count
My only major hurdles right now, are-
- settling on a control configuration (joystick, steering wheel, etc.)
- attachment configuration... I want it to be a native A-frame/self-aligning design, but will also have SSA/3pt/mechanical PTO capability for those who want to use their existing equipment
These factors alone, should save a significant amount of weight.
CADplans
Elite Member
I can't answer that at this particular juncture. I will post a different thread for machine specs, once the prototype has been constructed.
I can say this... sidehill slope capability should exceed 40 degrees with a flail mower attached.
Do you have any preferences/experiences to share, with regard to alternative design traction units?
CADplans
Elite Member
roadhunter
Elite Member
Very cool CAD.