Domestic Tank Hot Water Heater Trouble

[kenmac]

The electric water heater in our 1880's farmhouse is at least 70 years old. Used only for a month or two a year and otherwise drained during the winter (except for a couple of years we had renters) it just keeps plugging along. I've always planned to get it replaced with a NG (gas was run along the road in the 70's) hot water heater, but venting was always a problem. Now that they have the ones that vent underground will likely go that route

I have never seen a NG / propane WH . that vents underground. There are direct vent water heaters. but an underground vented wh is a new one on me. I sold out my business last yr. so I haven't kept up to date, so this maybe something new I don't know about

 

[Bird]

your pan must not have a drain. International plumbing code reqires a min. 1'' drain for the pan. If your pan doesn't have a drain this would be the way to go. But electrical devices also fail when power is off or other reasons. They are mechanical, and mechanical things can and do malfunction

I don't think that "International plumbing code" applies, since I know of no way the pan could have a drain.:laughing: Our house, as with nearly all houses in this part of the country, is built on a slab foundation with the water heater quite a ways from the exterior. The pressure relief line was installed in the foundation when the house was built so it goes under the hall and under the master bath, then out.

A pan is a nice symbolic gesture.

Useless against an actual leak, but it looks nice.

It might not completely prevent any damage, but at least it should shut off the water coming into the heater when that sensor gets wet.

 

[Bird]

your pan must not have a drain. International plumbing code reqires a min. 1'' drain for the pan. If your pan doesn't have a drain this would be the way to go. But electrical devices also fail when power is off or other reasons. They are mechanical, and mechanical things can and do malfunction

The Floodstop is plugged into an electrical outlet, but also has battery backup; just have to remember to change the batteries once a year or so. Now the manual says it will cycle (turn the water off and back on) once a month, but not being a very trusting soul, I cycle it myself about once a month. Just touch the "close" light on the controller and you can hear the valve close. I turn on the hot water faucet in the bathroom so I can also see that the flow stops. Then touch the "open" light to turn it back on.

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

I would not say it's better than a pan with a drain. This device is electrical/ mechanical, If you lose power and you have a leak. how would the device function ? Mechanical malfunction ? No mechanical device is fool proof.
As a plumbing / HVAC contractor for more than 30 years, I have seen many malfunctions in water heater's,etc,. If I were to use this device, I would still use a back up drain.

Dishwasher are a different story. Hard to install a dishwasher in a pan.Code doesn't require anything for a dishwasher.

I have installed pans with a drain for washing machines.

For A/C condensate drains, there is an electrical cut off switch, or drain pipe for the pan, in case of a water leak

My home does not have a pan for the water heater or AC so the battery operated alarms are my only warning something is leaking. I have no drains in my basement or sump pump to drain the pans too even if I wanted to put them in. Old house constructed in 1928. At least somewhere along the life of the home the galvanized pipe and knob and tube wiring was replaced, only been here for 18 months. Just saying the battery operated water alarms are an alternative to when you can not fit in a pan or have no means to drain them. Is it perfect nope.........

 

[kenmac]

I don't think that "International plumbing code" applies, since I know of no way the pan could have a drain.:laughing: Our house, as with nearly all houses in this part of the country, is built on a slab foundation with the water heater quite a ways from the exterior. The pressure relief line was installed in the foundation when the house was built so it goes under the hall and under the master bath, then out.

No, International Plumbing codes would not apply if your area doesn't follow them. Codes are a minimum standard that most cities /towns,counties follow for installing things for safety/ prevent damage, or to keep things from falling apart.

Would an inspector allow a device like that to be installed here, instead of a pan with a drain ? I really don't know. They aren't listed in the code, and I have never seen one installed here.

For homes here that are built on a slab,the wh is installed next an outside wall,garage,utility room,attic.

I guess in your case, if you have no inspections, or the inspector allows something like this in place of a pan, you do have protection, and this would be better than nothing at all

 

[ultrarunner]

Saw a home recently on a slab with the water heater about dead center... the heater was on a pan that drained to a gravel area about 12" square.... looks like someone just cut a hole in the slab and dug it out and then filled with rock.

Codes change all the time... sometimes things are grandfathered and acceptable.

 

[JamesHW]

I have never seen a NG / propane WH . that vents underground. There are direct vent water heaters. but an underground vented wh is a new one on me. I sold out my business last yr. so I haven't kept up to date, so this maybe something new I don't know about

Sure looks like I got that wrong. Must of read about horizontal flues and added 2+2 to get 5. Back to the drawing boards. Problem with these really old houses with the massive chimney support in the basement running a flue becomes a real hassle. I also want to add NG heating to the house and that will require a flue as well.

 

[kenmac]

Saw a home recently on a slab with the water heater about dead center... the heater was on a pan that drained to a gravel area about 12" square.... looks like someone just cut a hole in the slab and dug it out and then filled with rock.

Codes change all the time... sometimes things are grandfathered and acceptable.

The pan with drain for a WH has been in the plumbing code for a very long time. I would have to look back to get the exact date, but it's probably been listed for the last 25 yrs
They grandfather some here as well. Grandfather only applies to the original appliance. Once that original is replaced, the replacement has to be brought up to current code.
The grandfather clause is really up to each inspector as there is nothing about grandfather in any of the codes.

I have replaced water heaters, and called for inspection. Once the inspector arrived. He began to inspect the electrical box ,and the house wiring. The inspector made the home owner have an electrician replace the old fuse box for a breaker box. So, grandfather didn't apply here.
Once you call for an inspection, you just may open the door for all types of problems.

Most if not all states/cities,counties,etc, that have inspections have most likely adopted international codes. Adopting International codes was a way of having a standard across all states.

When I first started out, we were using the southern codes. Southern building code, southern gas /plumbing code. Then in 1997 ? came the international codes, and there all linked together from the building codes to the electrical, to plumbing,to gas to mechanical to fire. One will reference the other many times. Gas code references the fire code many times, you then have to look in the fire code to see that section. Plumbing will reference the building codes.

 

[ultrarunner]

I so far been able to prevail when it comes to Grandfather situations...

One was for steps in a historic district... the stair case in no way meets ADA or modern tread and riser requirements... with zero lot lines and a historic designation I told the inspector to go away... had a hearing and he was over-ruled and schooled on what a historic designation means.

Another is a home I own... it is 1250 square feet, 1922 Craftsman Bungalow... I bought it from the original owner that bought it in 1922...

City said I had to rewire and upgrade electrical with new service... I did not and also prevailed... all the knob and tube was unaltered as was the 30 amp single Edison Base Main Fuse and the the 20 amp plug and 15 amp light circuits... In 31 years of ownership no issues and still the same unaltered service.

I did have to seismic brace the water heater and install smoke and now NOx alarms...

You are right in that a lot depends on the Inspector and most are good at what they do... some are not and those are the ones I have no trouble taking to task and it is usually the last time I see them on the job.

A lot of the builders were using cheap florescent fixtures for bath and kitchen to get through final and then put in whatever the customer wanted... same for low flow shower heads...

As to water heaters... I was able to replace the 20 gallon with another 20 gallon even though code minimum is 30 gallons... there was physically no room to change the modern 20 gallon was a problem in that it had a larger diameter...

A lot of 1920 construction in the city with zero lot lines don't allow for many options unless floor plan changes and walls start moving.

 

[Ford850]

Sure looks like I got that wrong. Must of read about horizontal flues and added 2+2 to get 5. Back to the drawing boards. Problem with these really old houses with the massive chimney support in the basement running a flue becomes a real hassle. I also want to add NG heating to the house and that will require a flue as well.

Why wouldn't a power vented water heater work? 2", 3", or 4" PVC vent pipe out the upper wall of the basement gives you a lot of flexible options. Even the gas furnaces have horizontal PVC vent options.