GC cold weather start ??

[buickanddeere]

Am I incorrect that longer glow plug use in colder temperatures helps fire fuel (oil) to burn more fully . . . . and that oil warmed from 10 degrees or minus 0 temps to warmer temperatures allows the engine pistons to initially not resist movement like resistance of pure "cold weather engine oil" speeds so the injected oil doesn't cause chugging (initial over pumping of diesel into the cylinders that can't all get fired).

Isn't that - just like more throttle use - the reason multiple spins of the starter and more initial unburned exhaust are created and why the not-desireable chugging happens (engine resistance to movement and not full fuel consumption during start cycle) ?

After all - your starter on a gas or diesel can spin fast like crazy - but if the engine oil is slow to allow piston/cams/etc. from movement - you're "flooding" the cylinders with not fully burning fuel.

Just questions.

I agree with you. No idea why washing down the cylinder walls with raw unburned fuel doesn't bother the the block heater haters. Nor do they care about the knocking sound made by detonation on the compression stroke when raw fuel pre-ignites in the combustion chamber before the injector fires.
Maybe they can't afford the electricity however they can afford the increased fuel consumption and increased engine wear? There is no denying the prewired engine does not knock, doesn't wash lube oil off the cylinder walls, doesn't waste fuel idling to warm up and burns the fuel cleaner when started warm.

 

[buickanddeere]

The engine is very high compression for the amount of displacement and that is why it seems hard to start. The thing that makes up for that though is more fuel and air. That is why increasing the throttle a little helps overcome this.

There is a intake throttle on your diesel ?

 

[buickanddeere]

A glow plug diesel does not start with compression heat in cold weather, even in warm weather some require the fuel to hit the red hot glow plug tip for ignition. Rather than the heat of compressed air until engine rpms increase from cranking rpms to idle rpms.

 

[Snobdds]

Why such a hate for block heaters or is it a point to brag about "never having to use them" ?

There's no hate against block heaters, however false logic equating block heaters to easier starts is foolish...

The logic devolved into...somehow a block heater that only heats coolant, warms the oil and prevents wear at start up. Someone needed to fix the absurdity of logic some have displayed.

Modern block heaters heat the coolant to provide faster warm up time, they have nothing to do with the ability to start an engine.

If having warm oil was important, manufacturer's​ would put heating element pads on the oil pan.

 

[Snobdds]

There is a intake throttle on your diesel ?

Ah shucks, you got me. There is no intake throttle, but there is an idle throttle. Posting between meetings is not advisable, as the gotcha police is always lurking.

There you happy, you're Right.

 

[atsah]

however false logic equating block heaters to easier starts is foolish..

Why is it that when I plug the tractor in for an hour and a half at 0-F, It starts and sounds like I'm in Miami in July?

If I don't plug it in in the same circumstances it sounds like the motor is coming out from under the hood and it smokes like a freight train.

There is nothing 'foolish' about it.

What is happening when it's plugged in I really don't care, it's way easier on the tractor using the heater there is no question about it.

 

[Snobdds]

Why is it that when I plug the tractor in for an hour and a half at 0-F, It starts and sounds like I'm in Miami in July?

If I don't plug it in in the same circumstances it sounds like the motor is coming out from under the hood and it smokes like a freight train.

There is nothing 'foolish' about it.

What is happening when it's plugged in I really don't care, it's way easier on the tractor using the heater there is no question about it.

So this was the next logical argument to make. Easier starts, and your right...The warm up is a lot quicker with warm coolant.

Warm coolant however has no bearing on the tractors​ ability to start. It will start independent of coolant temperature, there is a distinction there.

 

[AxleHub]

So this was the next logical argument to make. Easier starts, and your right...The warm up is a lot quicker with warm coolant.

Warm coolant however has no bearing on the tractors​ ability to start. It will start independent of coolant temperature, there is a distinction there.

So now Snobdds you are saying that the "coolant" is somehow magically isolated from effecting the temperature of the engine block ?

Yet they call it an engine block heater for a reason. The engine block heater causes the engine block and its components in the block to be warmed to temperatures higher than the exterior environment temperature that makes the block and components so cold over night . . . before you turn the key, if you have the block heater plugged in, the block and components get heated so then the oil and engine components have less resistance to turn because they are warmer than the cold environment. If there is less resistance to move those components, then there is less starting momentum required to turn initial fuel burning into pistons cycling.

A hot engine block is cooled by the coolant in summer, and a deeply cold engine block is warmed by heated coolant before it is first running in winter. I just don't grasp how you can deny this. No matter what engine oil is chosen. . . It still thickens at 0 degrees from its situation at 65 degrees (outside temperature). An engine at starting has more resistance to turn when the oil is thicker. And even 5w oil displays this. If we put oil in our engines that didn't thicken at all . . . We'd have no protection at normal operating temps. Regardless synthetic or Dino oil.

We add additives to the fuel in winter specifically so it is at minimum not a jelly consistency too. If you choose to not pre-warm your engine block and the oil and components that are inside that block . . . that is your choice . . . but to what purpose is it to mislead people that somehow an engine block heater does not pre-warm your engine block and it's components and oil inside it ?

If there was a method to INTERNALLY pre-warm a subcompact's hydraulic/transmission fluid - I'd do that in the winter too. But sticking pads heating pads externally on the bottom of the pan - I don't consider safe and is very inefficient compared to how block heaters work.

Manufacturers mention engine block heaters in their manuals because they work - but they are optional choice for those in locations where cold temperatures are an issue - just as diesel fuel anti gel additives are optional if cold temps are an issue.

 

[Egon]

So this was the next logical argument to make. Easier starts, and your right...The warm up is a lot quicker with warm coolant.

Warm coolant however has no bearing on the tractors​ ability to start. It will start independent of coolant temperature, there is a distinction there.

Ever wonder why warm coolant allows the starter to crank the engine at higher rpm's. Or why the starter just goes "urugg" and then stalls in really cold weather with the engine at the ambient temperature. Or why it helps to press the clutch in on a geared transmission? Or why the shift lever on a geared transmission will not move at first?

 

[buickanddeere]

There's no hate against block heaters, however false logic equating block heaters to easier starts is foolish...

The logic devolved into...somehow a block heater that only heats coolant, warms the oil and prevents wear at start up. Someone needed to fix the absurdity of logic some have displayed.

Modern block heaters heat the coolant to provide faster warm up time, they have nothing to do with the ability to start an engine.

If having warm oil was important, manufacturer's​ would put heating element pads on the oil pan.

Winter weight synthetic oil will take take of lubrication issues. The block heater is to warm the cylinder walls and combustion chamber for less heat soak while starting and first few minutes of operation. Less engine wear from fuel wash down. Just because an engine will start without a block heater doesn't mean it should. How about that extended warmup time waiting for the windshield to clear and the extra fuel burn while idling and no work is being performed. Around here time is valuable and electricity is cheaper than gasoline or diesel. Starting with a prewarmed engine has the windshield clear of fog or frost by the time the operator walks around the scraping the ice and snow from the windows. There is no excuse for driving while looking through a peephole while wiping fog or frost away with your hand. That is how wrecks happen.

 

[buickanddeere]

Well I do feel sort of guilty posting that but it was so tempting. I found my detroit 2-53 starts best when the throttle is set to have the fuel rack at approx half travel. A quirk of that engine yet others start better with full fuel applied.

 

[buickanddeere]

So this was the next logical argument to make. Easier starts, and your right...The warm up is a lot quicker with warm coolant.

Warm coolant however has no bearing on the tractors​ ability to start. It will start independent of coolant temperature, there is a distinction there.

You will have to make the distinction that your experience is with an indirect injection diesel with glow plugs which starts and initially idles similar to a model airplane engine with a glow plug. There are the direct injection diesels that require hot combustion chamber air from compression for ignition instead of a red hot piece of metal. The prewarmed engine both rotates faster which increases the compressed air temperature and the warm combustion chamber, piston and cylinder walls do not provide as much delta T to slow absorbion of heat from the compressed air.

 

[AxleHub]

Ever wonder why warm coolant allows the starter to crank the engine at higher rpm's. Or why the starter just goes "urugg" and then stalls in really cold weather with the engine at the ambient temperature. Or why it helps to press the clutch in on a geared transmission? Or why the shift lever on a geared transmission will not move at first?

I thought you made an excellent example of the biggest benefit I see provided by an engine block heater in winter. Yes, engine lubrication at startup is improved too and yes the time for engine full warmup (and windshield etc.) is improved, and yes starter winding speed is improved, and yes less partially burned fuel is sent out the exhaust pipe - all those four are benefited. But your example is explaining what I consider the biggest advantage for starting - less original piston and component oil stiffness and thus, less resistance to initially turn properly. I've been saying it like you (but mine in too many words) LOL.

 

[atsah]

If you live in a cold climate your diesel machinery will benefit from a block heater, a good synthetic oil and letting it run for 30 minutes or so at 1600 rpm's before use, that is what I do here in northern Maine and it works, there isn't much more you can do other than move to a state that's warm.

I do pretty much the same thing with my 7.3, and have done to my 6.6 and 6.0 trucks and makes a world of difference for them as well.

 

[Snobdds]

So now Snobdds you are saying that the "coolant" is somehow magically isolated from effecting the temperature of the engine block ?

Yet they call it an engine block heater for a reason. The engine block heater causes the engine block and its components in the block to be warmed to temperatures higher than the exterior environment temperature that makes the block and components so cold over night . . . before you turn the key, if you have the block heater plugged in, the block and components get heated so then the oil and engine components have less resistance to turn because they are warmer than the cold environment. If there is less resistance to move those components, then there is less starting momentum required to turn initial fuel burning into pistons cycling.

A hot engine block is cooled by the coolant in summer, and a deeply cold engine block is warmed by heated coolant before it is first running in winter. I just don't grasp how you can deny this. No matter what engine oil is chosen. . . It still thickens at 0 degrees from its situation at 65 degrees (outside temperature). An engine at starting has more resistance to turn when the oil is thicker. And even 5w oil displays this. If we put oil in our engines that didn't thicken at all . . . We'd have no protection at normal operating temps. Regardless synthetic or Dino oil.

We add additives to the fuel in winter specifically so it is at minimum not a jelly consistency too. If you choose to not pre-warm your engine block and the oil and components that are inside that block . . . that is your choice . . . but to what purpose is it to mislead people that somehow an engine block heater does not pre-warm your engine block and it's components and oil inside it ?

If there was a method to INTERNALLY pre-warm a subcompact's hydraulic/transmission fluid - I'd do that in the winter too. But sticking pads heating pads externally on the bottom of the pan - I don't consider safe and is very inefficient compared to how block heaters work.

Manufacturers mention engine block heaters in their manuals because they work - but they are optional choice for those in locations where cold temperatures are an issue - just as diesel fuel anti gel additives are optional if cold temps are an issue.

 

[buickanddeere]

I thought it did not get that cold in Maine. My snow blower tractor gets 2-3 minutes of warmup while I dig the shed doors all the way open. Light duty snow blowing for the five minutes in the lowest gear then all she can handle.

 

[atsah]

-25F is a common ambient temp in Jan-Feb at 8:00am in Coburn Gore Maine, I fight these temps in many ways including engine preparedness, I know what works and what doesn't.

 

[buickanddeere]

BRrrrrrrrrrrrr that is colder than here. Some longer warmup is a good idea. We don't get those temperatures until the Lake freezes over.

 

[atsah]

It's pretty annoying when the wind is blowing 35mph first thing in the morning..

 

[Egon]

Yup, I'd be banging my head also If'n the concept of what it takes to start engines in cold weather just weren't there.