12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator

   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #31  
I've thought of this but fear the initial cost of the whole setup. Something I could most certainly due after filling my wallet back up that my new cabin has drained a bit. Next year maybe. I haven't read much into this subject though, do you have any literature you could link me to? Thanks for your comment friend

I think when I pulled up a datasheet for what 90cummins is using (Xantrex) back when, it had been bought up by Schneider. You should be able to still find it, based on the model # he lists below:

See page 70 of this thread, start at post #697.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/oil-fuel-lubricants/271843-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-70.html

That type of controller gives you the ability to distribute the load and duty cycle between the gen and battery/inverter. Takes a bit more planning, and longer view - expanding the battery bank can be an option for later, once funds allow....

I haven't used any of the modern generation of controller like 90 has..... read through what he posted there, and if you have questions on that model, shoot him a PM, he is a sharp guy.

Rgds, D.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #32  
I have a 22kW Isuzu unit from Central Maine Diesel, which is actually assembled and shipped by Mack Boring in NJ. For many of my monthly tests, I run it without a load and I can tell you the exhaust is plenty hot after 15-20 minutes, so I would not worry about wet-stacking at all. These things run at 1800rpm regardless of the load. Load will definitely make it work harder and generate more heat, but it seems to run plenty warm even at no load.

Haven't seen Isuzu's specs, but this is what CAT had to say....

View attachment CAT_re_Underloading_generators.pdf

General summary on wet-stacking:

View attachment is_09_wet_stacking.pdf

OP is focused on high loads at the moment, but many diesels end up underloaded.

Rgds, D.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #33  
Under loading the generator is a concern you need to address. You need to figure out how many watts you will be needing, an Energy Budget, and get a system that works with that load/budget. Too much generator is bad as is too little. You need a Goldilocks solution/generator.

If you have Internet access, having the systems in the cloud would likely be cheaper than having to burn the diesel to run a generator to power the systems in house.

What you are trying to do is what cruising boats do all of the time. They have power loads, ironically called house loads, that are almost always powered from batteries. The batteries are charged via alternators on engines, generators, solar, winder generators, and/or hydro generators.

The big consumers of power in a house or a boat are HVAC(Usually AC), fridges, freezers, and hot water makers. Working within an energy budget, which is what one does if not grid connected, means you best bang for the buck is to minimize energy requirements. What you don't want to do is run a generator anymore than is required to generate power due to cost.

Solar power is a rich mans game in that it cost quite a bit of money up front for the installation. However, there are Federal, and sometimes state, tax rebates that will pay back a good percentage of the installation cost. The problem is that you have to have the money upfront, and depending on the state incentives, have the financial ability to wait for years to get the full rebate. The last time I checked, between the NC and Federal tax rebates, I would get 65% of the cost of the solar installation paid back to me. But I would have to have about $20,000 upfront and it would then take a few years for all of the state rebate to be paid. My system would not have batteries...

Batteries are the real Oh Scat in off grid systems, be it a house or a boat. Lead acid batteries are a consumable. An expensive consumable. You will use them up, they will have to be replaced and if you get 10 years out of them, that would be amazing. Lead acid batteries should not be used so that more than 30% of the energy in the battery bank is used. Using more than 30% of the power starts to dramatically reduce the number of cycles/lifetime of the battery which increases long term costs. What this means is that once you figure out you how many watts/amp hours you need each day, you have to triple the size of the battery bank. :shocked: Taint cheap but it is worse. If one is depending on solar or wind to power the battery bank, then the battery bank needs to be even larger to cover the time when there is no sun or wind. :shocked::shocked::shocked:

So one might say, well use a generator to fill up the battery! Well, that will be expensive because one of the problems with lead acid batteries is Partial State of Charge(PSOC). Lead acid batteries self regulate how much power they will take as they become charges, say around 80% filled. At that point, they started taking less power, and depending on the size of the battery bank, it can take many hours to FULLY charge the batteries. If one is using a generator to fill up the batteries, the generator will be producing very little power because the batteries are not asking for power, and the generator will be under loaded... :confused2::rolleyes:

The best way to fully charge lead acid batteries, ie, get that last 20ish% into the batteries is with solar or wind. But to do that, the solar and/or wind power producing system has to be designed with the size of the battery bank.

Lithium batteries don't have the problems of lead acid but one REALLY has to pay attention to the various Lithium battery chemistry. The information I have read about Tesla's wall batteries does not mention which Lithium chemistry they are using which is critical. The fact they do NOT mention the chemistry to me is a big red warning flag. Another problem with Tesla's wall battery is that is only warranted if one is using solar and maybe wind to charge the battery. Grid or generator charging nullifies the warranty. :rolleyes::shocked::eek:

The best Lithium battery is LiFePo chemistry. These batteries do not explode nor catch on fire like other Lithium chemistry batteries. They do not have the PSOC problem of lead acid, they can be charged with a huge amount of power in a short period of time and can also provide a higher amount of power out of the battery compared to lead acid. Roughly twice the power in and power out vs lead acid. Even better, the batteries can be used so that up to about 80% of the battery capacity without too much of a life reduction. However, using about 50% of the battery capacity seems to be a good balance between lifetime and battery bank size/cost. Yet another advantage of LiFePo is that as the power is used of voltage remains pretty constant unlike lead acid. LiFePo batteries are also about half the weight and size of lead acid and because there is more power available with LiFePo, one can have a much smaller and lighter battery bank.

Soooo, since LiFePo batteries are soooo much better than lead acid why aren't they being used? One word. Cost. They are much more expensive than lead acid on an upfront comparison. However, even with the high prices, their long term costs seem much cheaper than lead acid. But the price to buy is easily $10,000+ depending on the size of the battery bank.

Circling back to the proper loading of the generator, it is easy to miss one important fact in what I just said. LiFePo batteries can accept huge amounts of power in a short tme which means you can design a battery bank to power your loads/Energy Budget for N number of days, which then allows one to size the generator so it only needs to run X number of hours at a given load Y, where Y is going to provide a load that will maximize the life of the genset.

Later,
Dan
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #34  
There are a lot of parameters to consider in designing an off-grid home, but it can't be all that complicated. I have a neighbor who did it just because it was cheaper than pulling a power line in. It's easy to get stuck in the box. A 12 kw diesel is a good generator, but too big for all but occasional use. There is no reason a 2 kw generator can't take care of keeping the batteries charged and the lights on. Running on propane, it would be about as reliable as a diesel.

Load shedding is a good place to start. Great insulation, all propane appliances, energy efficient computers, monitors and TV sets, solar hot water, passive solar space heating, and ultra efficient AC would be good places to start. A water system where the pump doesn't kick on every time you flush would be a great asset. Once you complete the site design and calc your min/max/median loads, you can start to design your electrical system.

There will be months out of the year where AC is not required. There will be months where heat is not required. A cabin in the woods is not going to be a climate controlled clean room. One of the parameters is how much discomfort you are willing to put up with. Are you willing to work in shorts in front of a fan? Are you willing to wear wool socks and long johns when it's cold? Are you willing to only fire up the generator once a week to run the dishwasher and wash your clothes? The habits of the user are a major part of the design.

At that point you can start deciding how many PV panels you want, if any, and how big your batteries need to be. How smart is the system going to be? PLCs can do a lot to automate load management.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Haven't seen Isuzu's specs, but this is what CAT had to say....

View attachment 521965

General summary on wet-stacking:

View attachment 521964

OP is focused on high loads at the moment, but many diesels end up underloaded.

Rgds, D.

Thank you my friend, really appreciate your input here. I have sent him a PM! My view point now has changed to buying a 1800rpm water cooled 7kw Kubota, a xantrex or similar inverter, and 4-8 420ah 6v Trojan batteries in series for either a 24v or 48v set up. I figure with 3500 watts continuous pull with upwards to 5000(when the HVAC comes on) that setup will handle it just fine while saving the life of the generator and keeping fuel costs down. I wonder just how often the generator will come on to charge the batteries back up to full after hitting 80%...will need to buy an electrical panel to automatically start the genny up once the batteries drain to 80% - shouldn't be too difficult!

Once again thank you Dave, appreciate you greatly :) Much love and take care!
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator
  • Thread Starter
#36  
Under loading the generator is a concern you need to address. You need to figure out how many watts you will be needing, an Energy Budget, and get a system that works with that load/budget. Too much generator is bad as is too little. You need a Goldilocks solution/generator.

If you have Internet access, having the systems in the cloud would likely be cheaper than having to burn the diesel to run a generator to power the systems in house.

What you are trying to do is what cruising boats do all of the time. They have power loads, ironically called house loads, that are almost always powered from batteries. The batteries are charged via alternators on engines, generators, solar, winder generators, and/or hydro generators.

The big consumers of power in a house or a boat are HVAC(Usually AC), fridges, freezers, and hot water makers. Working within an energy budget, which is what one does if not grid connected, means you best bang for the buck is to minimize energy requirements. What you don't want to do is run a generator anymore than is required to generate power due to cost.

Solar power is a rich mans game in that it cost quite a bit of money up front for the installation. However, there are Federal, and sometimes state, tax rebates that will pay back a good percentage of the installation cost. The problem is that you have to have the money upfront, and depending on the state incentives, have the financial ability to wait for years to get the full rebate. The last time I checked, between the NC and Federal tax rebates, I would get 65% of the cost of the solar installation paid back to me. But I would have to have about $20,000 upfront and it would then take a few years for all of the state rebate to be paid. My system would not have batteries...

Batteries are the real Oh Scat in off grid systems, be it a house or a boat. Lead acid batteries are a consumable. An expensive consumable. You will use them up, they will have to be replaced and if you get 10 years out of them, that would be amazing. Lead acid batteries should not be used so that more than 30% of the energy in the battery bank is used. Using more than 30% of the power starts to dramatically reduce the number of cycles/lifetime of the battery which increases long term costs. What this means is that once you figure out you how many watts/amp hours you need each day, you have to triple the size of the battery bank. :shocked: Taint cheap but it is worse. If one is depending on solar or wind to power the battery bank, then the battery bank needs to be even larger to cover the time when there is no sun or wind. :shocked::shocked::shocked:

So one might say, well use a generator to fill up the battery! Well, that will be expensive because one of the problems with lead acid batteries is Partial State of Charge(PSOC). Lead acid batteries self regulate how much power they will take as they become charges, say around 80% filled. At that point, they started taking less power, and depending on the size of the battery bank, it can take many hours to FULLY charge the batteries. If one is using a generator to fill up the batteries, the generator will be producing very little power because the batteries are not asking for power, and the generator will be under loaded... :confused2::rolleyes:

The best way to fully charge lead acid batteries, ie, get that last 20ish% into the batteries is with solar or wind. But to do that, the solar and/or wind power producing system has to be designed with the size of the battery bank.

Lithium batteries don't have the problems of lead acid but one REALLY has to pay attention to the various Lithium battery chemistry. The information I have read about Tesla's wall batteries does not mention which Lithium chemistry they are using which is critical. The fact they do NOT mention the chemistry to me is a big red warning flag. Another problem with Tesla's wall battery is that is only warranted if one is using solar and maybe wind to charge the battery. Grid or generator charging nullifies the warranty. :rolleyes::shocked::eek:

The best Lithium battery is LiFePo chemistry. These batteries do not explode nor catch on fire like other Lithium chemistry batteries. They do not have the PSOC problem of lead acid, they can be charged with a huge amount of power in a short period of time and can also provide a higher amount of power out of the battery compared to lead acid. Roughly twice the power in and power out vs lead acid. Even better, the batteries can be used so that up to about 80% of the battery capacity without too much of a life reduction. However, using about 50% of the battery capacity seems to be a good balance between lifetime and battery bank size/cost. Yet another advantage of LiFePo is that as the power is used of voltage remains pretty constant unlike lead acid. LiFePo batteries are also about half the weight and size of lead acid and because there is more power available with LiFePo, one can have a much smaller and lighter battery bank.

Soooo, since LiFePo batteries are soooo much better than lead acid why aren't they being used? One word. Cost. They are much more expensive than lead acid on an upfront comparison. However, even with the high prices, their long term costs seem much cheaper than lead acid. But the price to buy is easily $10,000+ depending on the size of the battery bank.

Circling back to the proper loading of the generator, it is easy to miss one important fact in what I just said. LiFePo batteries can accept huge amounts of power in a short tme which means you can design a battery bank to power your loads/Energy Budget for N number of days, which then allows one to size the generator so it only needs to run X number of hours at a given load Y, where Y is going to provide a load that will maximize the life of the genset.

Later,
Dan

Wow, thanks Dan for all the knowledge you took the time to share! Greatly appreciate that brother. LiFePo batteries seem awesome! took a quick look at them and they seem like the battery to shoot for once funds allow. Until then, I think I'm going to go with the 420ah 6v Trojan deep cycle batteries for a minimum of say three years til funds allow to upgrade to the LifePo's you recommended.

Thanks again Dan, much love and respect. Take care
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #37  
I don't remember if I put in my two cents worth or not. I have a 7.5 Onan/Kubota and although it is a nice standby system my 12.5 Isuzu/Onan (project) is somehow a somewhat nicer running motor. Smoother, and not so violent at start up and shut down. Don't get me wrong. In an outage, listening to either of them purrr along at 1800 is music to my ears.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator
  • Thread Starter
#38  
I don't remember if I put in my two cents worth or not. I have a 7.5 Onan/Kubota and although it is a nice standby system my 12.5 Isuzu/Onan (project) is somehow a somewhat nicer running motor. Smoother, and not so violent at start up and shut down. Don't get me wrong. In an outage, listening to either of them purrr along at 1800 is music to my ears.

That's the thing. I'm not sure what size generator I'm going to need for the battery bank I'd like. I'm thinking in the 6-12kw range. I emailed the guys at Hardy Diesel(will most likely buy from them) asking about the expected life of their 7kw Kubota at constant use 24/7. They replied with 28k-30k hours before top end rebuild.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #39  
Thank you my friend, really appreciate your input here. I have sent him a PM! My view point now has changed to buying a 1800rpm water cooled 7kw Kubota, a xantrex or similar inverter, and 4-8 420ah 6v Trojan batteries in series for either a 24v or 48v set up. I figure with 3500 watts continuous pull with upwards to 5000(when the HVAC comes on) that setup will handle it just fine while saving the life of the generator and keeping fuel costs down. I wonder just how often the generator will come on to charge the batteries back up to full after hitting 80%...will need to buy an electrical panel to automatically start the genny up once the batteries drain to 80% - shouldn't be too difficult!

Once again thank you Dave, appreciate you greatly :) Much love and take care!

Long ago, I spent time around custom designed big systems.... so I knew it was all doable...... thanks to 90cummins, I'd heard about the Xantrex he uses - today, that is available for relatively low cost, with high reliability - it is definitely the type of setup I'd look at in your situation.

There are newer/better chemistries out there, but Pbacid has been the workhorse for a long time, for good reason. A good quality Pb batt (Trojan, Rolls....) has a decent life span, given minimal maintenance and no abuse. If you are the type to seriously take on building and living off-grid, then the maintenance is no big deal (remembering to do it, now that's another story...... ;) ). Keep the battery terminals cleaned/greased and ensure fluid level is up, and most industrial batteries will serve you well (w/o over-discharge).

One thing I'd look at a bit is the recovery caps / re-breathers you can get to replace individual cell caps on industrial batteries. That's not the right trade-name, but I think you'll get what I mean....... I haven't used them yet, but it's one thing I'd consider for using on a conventional Pb batt bank....... done right, they should help reduce the need/frequency of topping up with distilled/DI water.

Let us know what you select, and when you get time (ha !) pls post pics and feedback

Rgds, D.
 
   / 12kw Isuzu Diesel Generator #40  
P.S. - wanted to second the point that's been raised about direct DC loading.

While modern inverters are efficient and pretty reliable, there are gains to be made by driving relevant loads directly with DC - less complexity, and less energy lost in conversions.

Rgds, D.
 

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