Plumbing Problem

[hr3]

OK here goes. The house we bought in the Philippines seems to have a leak in the plumbing. There is a shallow well pump feeding an 80 gal. tank in the pump house it comes on every 10 to 15 min. , from there it goes underground to the house. The house is on a slab, and all piping is under the slab and comes up into hollow block walls.

Things I have done so far
Shut the water off at the tank to isolate the house from the pump. Result is pump holds pressure and doesn't come on so the foot valve should be good.

Last night I shut the water off to the house over night then when I turn it on in the morning I get lots of air out of the faucets.

Any ideas on how to find the leak ????

Thanks

 

[ultrarunner]

Looks like re-piping...

Is there a shutoff where the underground enters the home...

It could just be a leak in the line from the pump to the house if you are lucky.

I've worked on several homes with under slab plumbing and ran the new lines in the attic.

 

[Redlands Okie]

Why kind of pipe ? Might find that shut off at edge of house that ultra runner mentions or cut the line and install one or at least a cap on each. Pressure up each side (to well on one side and to house on other) at least then you know which half. Sometimes on the house part its easier to run around the out side of house then into the house to the sinks or what ever. All depends on layout of floor plan and plumbing.

 

[RNeumann]

To help me understand- water goes from well to pump house to underground line to house. Isolating the well and pump house reveals no leaks. But shutting the water off at the house creates problems??
If that's the case the leak is in the house. If it was underground between the pump and main house the pump would have continued to cycle and prevented air from entering system. With the house isolated from the pump and pressure side of the system water leaks out and allows air to enter the system.
Under slab leaks are sometimes hard to find. The flooring will need to be removed to (hopefully) find a damp spot in the slab. Sometimes customers would notice a warm spot if it was on the hot water side. We also have a listening device that helps hear the sound of water leaking. Unfortunately sometimes it was easier and cheaper to repipe overhead. This would be the case if flooring was difficult to remove and or would cost more than a repipe.
You can also try opening walls in the bathrooms, laundry and or kitchen to see if you can figure out how it was plumbed and if any part of the system can be isolated. Typical "American" plumbing would prevent connections under the slab in either pex or copper. If that's the case down there you will find mini made up manifolds in the walls near your bathroom or kitchen or laundry depending on layout and how it was plumbed.

Sorry this is bad news. You may get lucky but we don't see that too often. It's typically a bit cheaper to run the plumbing in the slab and it keeps the lines cool in warm climates but this is the disadvantage.
Good luck.

 

[Deere Dude]

Is there a check valve anywhere after the pump, like by the tank and before the pressure switch?

 

[hr3]

The floors are all tile and I hate to just start willy nilly jacking up floors.. Ooo and something I didn't mention , yesterday we lost pressure by about half for a short time but then it came right back but the pump showed good pressure... The pipe is some sort of rolled plastic coils, I cut into it to install an outside faucet and had to use special fittings, but in the house from what I have seen it's glued fittings. "I saw this from a bathroom remodel we had done" other than that all pipes are buried in concrete walls and floors.

 

[hr3]

Is there a check valve anywhere after the pump, like by the tank and before the pressure switch?

No nothing after the pump..

 

[MarkF48]

Not sure if some of the isolating you've done would have picked up on this. A leaky/stuck open flapper in my toilet drained my well overnight. I was scratching my head on this one for a while trying figure out where the water went. Depending where your toilet is, it could drain the pipes leaving air.

 

[Clint S]

Not sure if some of the isolating you've done would have picked up on this. A leaky/stuck open flapper in my toilet drained my well overnight. I was scratching my head on this one for a while trying figure out where the water went. Depending where your toilet is, it could drain the pipes leaving air.

I had a flapper do the same it was such a sight leak the pump would only come on once every 6 to 8 hours. What kind of pipe is it??? I once ran a 3/4 inch pipe through a leaky 1inch pipe about 200 feet to fix the leak

 

[zzvyb6]

When I had this problem at my barn, the plastic pipe under the slab had stainless hose clamps but rusty iron fasteners. Line was 1-1/4". I ran 1" plastic inside the failed line fished out the ends and reconnected. You can not tell the difference in flow rate,

 

[jaxs]

It's worth hireing a leak detection company. The one's I've used applied air pressure then listened with various stethoscopes. It's better if the leak detector doesn't do repairs,just mark's the location and leave's repair to plumbers. If leak isn't between storage tank and house,there's better than 50-50 odds leak is at a connection and all connections should be above foundation in walls.

 

[hr3]

Not sure if some of the isolating you've done would have picked up on this. A leaky/stuck open flapper in my toilet drained my well overnight. I was scratching my head on this one for a while trying figure out where the water went. Depending where your toilet is, it could drain the pipes leaving air.

Ya I thought of that too, I shut the valves off to them even and it still does it..???

 

[hr3]

It's worth hireing a leak detection company. The one's I've used applied air pressure then listened with various stethoscopes. It's better if the leak detector doesn't do repairs,just mark's the location and leave's repair to plumbers. If leak isn't between storage tank and house,there's better than 50-50 odds leak is at a connection and all connections should be above foundation in walls.

I'll check and see if I can find someone to do this,, but remember I am in the Philippines,, I can't even find rock wool or fiberglass insulation over here.. arggg

 

[TractorGuy]

Just had a leak repaired in one of my pipes. One thing I hated about having a slab house built was the thought of a pipe busting under the slab. I could hear my leak. It was in the wall behind the spare bathroom sink. Got lucky and it was actually above the slab but the plastic sleeve was causing the water to go below slab so no floor damage. Plumber had to cut a 1 foot square piece of sheet rock out of the wall behind it. We have a dresser covering that wall so I just glued a piece of wood inside to support the sheet rock and stuck it back in the hole.

Plumber said if it breaks a pipe below slab they replumb through the attic with PEX nowadays.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

When I'm trying to diagnose plumbing problems I keep telling myself, "there is no magic." Water follows the laws of physics.

Two things you have said indicate there is a leak: the well pump cycles even if you aren't using water, and if you shut off the well pump you get air in the pipes. The first job is to locate the leak. The air in the pipes makes me think the leak is low down, air would only enter to the level of the leak. Your best tool is to isolate sections of the plumbing to get a rough idea of where the leak might be. Usually on the water heater there is a shutoff valve that allows you to shut off the hot half of the water system, that reduces your search by 50% right there. Then look for other shut-off spots, and even places where the pipe is exposed and you could add a shutoff and isolate part of the house. I would close the shutoffs on all the fixtures and appliances in the house to make sure it's not a leaking toilet or dishwasher somewhere. I would work first on trying to determine whether the leak is in the slab or in the house because that determines your approach.

You might be able to hear the leak with a stethoscope.

If you decide the leak is in the slab, you have to decide how you're going to fix it. The question is whether you're going to dig it up and fix it or abandon it and re-route the pipe. If you're going to abandon it there's no point in pin-pointing the location. If you're going to fix it the closer you are the smaller the hole you have to dig. Often in situations like this the value a plumber brings is not necessarily in doing anything you couldn't have done, but knowing when there's no choice but to start knocking holes in things.

The loss of pressure on the pump is puzzling and not consistent with a leak. If you were losing enough water for the house water to drop I'd expect you'd be seeing it coming out somewhere and hearing it. That sounds to me like air getting into the pump and taking a while to work itself out.

It's also good to quote Sherlock Holmes: "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

[hr3]

When I'm trying to diagnose plumbing problems I keep telling myself, "there is no magic." Water follows the laws of physics.

Two things you have said indicate there is a leak: the well pump cycles even if you aren't using water, and if you shut off the well pump you get air in the pipes. The first job is to locate the leak. The air in the pipes makes me think the leak is low down, air would only enter to the level of the leak. Your best tool is to isolate sections of the plumbing to get a rough idea of where the leak might be. Usually on the water heater there is a shutoff valve that allows you to shut off the hot half of the water system, that reduces your search by 50% right there. Then look for other shut-off spots, and even places where the pipe is exposed and you could add a shutoff and isolate part of the house. I would close the shutoffs on all the fixtures and appliances in the house to make sure it's not a leaking toilet or dishwasher somewhere. I would work first on trying to determine whether the leak is in the slab or in the house because that determines your approach.

You might be able to hear the leak with a stethoscope.

If you decide the leak is in the slab, you have to decide how you're going to fix it. The question is whether you're going to dig it up and fix it or abandon it and re-route the pipe. If you're going to abandon it there's no point in pin-pointing the location. If you're going to fix it the closer you are the smaller the hole you have to dig. Often in situations like this the value a plumber brings is not necessarily in doing anything you couldn't have done, but knowing when there's no choice but to start knocking holes in things.

The loss of pressure on the pump is puzzling and not consistent with a leak. If you were losing enough water for the house water to drop I'd expect you'd be seeing it coming out somewhere and hearing it. That sounds to me like air getting into the pump and taking a while to work itself out.

It's also good to quote Sherlock Holmes: "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Have read your post several times lots of good thoughts,, Question for you if air were getting into the pump would that mean i'm sucking it dry somehow ??? or would the air be coming from somewhere else ???

Thanks

 

[radioman]

to understand -- we more info here - how far does the line go under the slab to the first shutoff valve? any wet spots in the lawn between house and pump? do you feel the leak in between house and pump or right in the house? what size piping is it? can you rig up a garden hose from the pump and run to the house outdoor faucet and shut off the line to the pump in the house and test overnight? if it still leaks down then im afraid you need to start repiping in the house. if it holds then you just need to run a new line from pump to house somehow- smaller one inside old or dig up and install new or reroute to least amount of work to break up slab .

 

[ultrarunner]

Could be a rusty or perforated pickup for shallow wells or the well water level dropping?

 

[Egon]

The line to pump house is good so start by finding the supply line where it enters the house. Put in a valve and then you will be able to determine which segment has a leak. Then go from there..

 

[hr3]

The line to pump house is good so start by finding the supply line where it enters the house. Put in a valve and then you will be able to determine which segment has a leak. Then go from there..

The house is on a slab and the slab goes out about 10' away from the house. There are no shutoffs in the house only the ones below the toilets. "This is how it is done here I know it wrong but"

The line from the pump house to the house is only about a foot deep with no wet spots anywhere near them.