Tractor for mountain property

[RaydaKub]

If a FEL bucket is used to carry saws, fuel, chains etc., etc...and you need to stop on a really muddy, steep hill...nobody wants to dump the bucket in the mud to use it as a brake...

Very true, no matter the drive train.

With a complete loss of power descending a steep grade...just brakes alone can break traction...with 4x4 gear drive at least you have some control unlike a HST machine...

Trying to understand your statement and reasoning here. If you have complete loss of power (engine died I assume?), you've lost bucket controls as well as propulsion. Why would brakes cause an HST to break traction, but not do the same to a gear? All things being equal, the tires don't know what the linkage is between them and the now-dead engine. If the brakes are used to stop rotation on all 4 wheels, they have no idea who did it or how.

 

[/pine]

Very true, no matter the drive train.



Trying to understand your statement and reasoning here. If you have complete loss of power (engine died I assume?), you've lost bucket controls as well as propulsion. Why would brakes cause an HST to break traction, but not do the same to a gear? All things being equal, the tires don't know what the linkage is between them and the now-dead engine. If the brakes are used to stop rotation on all 4 wheels, they have no idea who did it or how.

Brakes would act the same regardless of the drive type in a no power, freewheeling situation...with a 4x4 gear machine the transmission could still be engaged with torque to all four wheels...

 

[RaydaKub]

Brakes would act the same regardless of the drive type in a no power, freewheeling situation...with a 4x4 gear machine the transmission could still be engaged with torque to all four wheels...

So no power on gear, you release the clutch and the engine prevents the drivetrain from turning. On an hst you would press the brake, the rear wheels don't turn anymore just like the rears on the gear. The rears are mechanically linked to the fronts through the drivetrain so they can't turn either. Both tractors have all 4 wheels stationary. They don't know why they can't turn, they just are stopped. The gear is more automatic at this point because it doesn't require an additional press of the brake pedal.

However, why did you lose power? With the hst, you probably didn't stall it due to pulling too hard. But you may have with the gear drive, simply because it is a constant ratio of engine to wheel revolutions. In an effort to not kill it, you clutch and just broke that constant drivetrain connection, causing a freewheel situation you would never even see on the hst.

 

[RedNeckGeek]

I've never driven a gear tractor, but the HST on my Kubota has been a literal life saver on my steep (>20% grades) property. Lots of times I'm working right up to the edge where a slope gets a LOT steeper, sometimes trying to row the tractor back up the hill in the mud with the FEL bucket, and just being able to rock my foot on the HST pedal will instantly get the wheels going backwards. I can't imagine trying to juggle a clutch pedal and avoid going over the edge in that situation.

Like others have said, I don't trust the HST to keep the tractor still on a steep slope, and will set the brake HARD, drop the bucket, and also drop the box blade out back. That still may not totally immobilize the tractor, but it'll slow it down enough that I have time to get out of the way if it does start to move. I've had the misfortune to strip a propeller shaft coupler on the 4WD to the front wheels, and I can tell you the resulting ride down the hill was very exhilarating. The rear wheels left a nice deep set of skid marks as the tractor accelerated (I had both feet on the brake pedal), and only dropping the bucket kept me out of the lake below.

But the elephant in the room here is that tractors in general have a fairly high center of gravity, and can get very tippy on side hills. I've used a tracked skid steer on slopes I know would roll the tractor in a heartbeat, and I've often thought I'd have been much better off with one of those than the Kubota I have. Only problem is, to the best of my knowledge, they don't make one with a 3 point hitch and PTO on the back. :2cents:

 

[/pine]

So no power on gear, you release the clutch and the engine prevents the drivetrain from turning. On an hst you would press the brake, the rear wheels don't turn anymore just like the rears on the gear. The rears are mechanically linked to the fronts through the drivetrain so they can't turn either. Both tractors have all 4 wheels stationary. They don't know why they can't turn, they just are stopped. The gear is more automatic at this point because it doesn't require an additional press of the brake pedal.

However, why did you lose power? With the hst, you probably didn't stall it due to pulling too hard. But you may have with the gear drive, simply because it is a constant ratio of engine to wheel revolutions. In an effort to not kill it, you clutch and just broke that constant drivetrain connection, causing a freewheel situation you would never even see on the hst.

No you've created a different scenario than what I was referring to...the premise was no power descending a steep grade (without braking would a HST not freewheel?) when brakes are applied they could break traction...If the wheels are not rolling you have no control at all...
Also...BTW...a gear drive would turn the crankshaft but it's the tractor's (low) gearing (not the engine) that would help slow the machine if the wheels were not skidding down the hill...

 

[RaydaKub]

No you've created a different scenario than what I was referring to...the premise was no power descending a steep grade (without braking would a HST not freewheel?) when brakes are applied they could break traction...If the wheels are not rolling you have no control at all...
Also...BTW...a gear drive would turn the crankshaft but it's the tractor's (low) gearing (not the engine) that would help slow the machine if the wheels were not skidding down the hill...

I overlooked the descending spec, my apologies. But using the brakes instead of engine drag still shouldn't cause loss of traction.

Disclaimer: Operator panic can overcome any safety device or logical/standard practices.

 

[/pine]

I overlooked the descending spec, my apologies. But using the brakes instead of engine drag still shouldn't cause loss of traction.

Disclaimer: Operator panic can overcome any safety device or logical/standard practices.

I was not speculating on a cause for breaking traction but it can happen when descending...why 4x4 is paramount on grades in slippery conditions...***

Now I'm a bit confused why you cite "engine drag" as a source of power/torque ??...in normal operating conditions the low range of a gear tractor...doubling the RPMs will only increase the over the ground speed by about 15%...it is the gearing that makes the difference in "walking" a gear versus a HST tractor down a slippery grade with no power...


*** just a heads up to be careful now that the leaves are dropping...with a little rain they can turn into marbles...!!!

 

[RaydaKub]

I was not speculating on a cause for breaking traction but it can happen when descending...why 4x4 is paramount on grades in slippery conditions...***

My turn to be confused. In the first post I replied to, did you not mention gear slowing/stopping the tractor in 4x4, but brakes not stopping the HST (even though it is also 4x4) ?

Now I'm a bit confused why you cite "engine drag" as a source of power/torque ??...in normal operating conditions the low range of a gear tractor...doubling the RPMs will only increase the over the ground speed by about 15%...it is the gearing that makes the difference in "walking" a gear versus a HST tractor down a slippery grade with no power...

I cite engine drag because without the engine drag, your low gearing is pointless. If you push in the clutch, you still have all those low gears engaged with the wheels, but you're gonna start to fly down the hill. The source of the holding force is the engine. The gearing multiplies the force greatly, but w/o that force, the gearing doesn't do much.

This does make me want to go park on my hill and shut off the engine, just to see what happens in my HST...I've never given it a lot of thought.

*** just a heads up to be careful now that the leaves are dropping...with a little rain they can turn into marbles...!!!

There's a point we agree on!

 

[/pine]

My turn to be confused. In the first post I replied to, did you not mention gear slowing/stopping the tractor in 4x4, but brakes not stopping the HST (even though it is also 4x4) ?



I cite engine drag because without the engine drag, your low gearing is pointless. If you push in the clutch, you still have all those low gears engaged with the wheels, but you're gonna start to fly down the hill. The source of the holding force is the engine. The gearing multiplies the force greatly, but w/o that force, the gearing doesn't do much.

This does make me want to go park on my hill and shut off the engine, just to see what happens in my HST...I've never given it a lot of thought.

Thanks I see the point about "engine drag"...

My turn to be confused. In the first post I replied to, did you not mention gear slowing/stopping the tractor in 4x4, but brakes not stopping the HST (even though it is also 4x4) ?

Not sure I understand the question...all reference to brakes (either type of drive) was supposing that applying the brakes (rear wheels only) could possibly break traction and start to slide...that was the scenario I was supposing...

 

[RaydaKub]

Thanks I see the point about "engine drag"...


Not sure I understand the question...all reference to brakes (either type of drive) was supposing that applying the brakes (rear wheels only) could possibly break traction and start to slide...that was the scenario I was supposing...

Just sharing another point of view. That's how we learn from each other. ::thumbsup::
I must have misunderstood your previous point. ::confused3::
We'll call it even. ::laughing::