Back drag with bucket vs box blade

[CMV]

A little background - my land is all Carolina red clay. Won't perc, holds water, takes at least 10+ days to dry out, a little less in full summer sun. Years ago was a land clearing/demolition land fill for a highway widening project and has been closed from that use for 10 yrs. They went way overboard capping it with a good 8'+ of unscreened fill dirt (red clay). Tree trunks, branches, broken up concrete & asphalt is all that's buried there. So the ground is soft, low spots won't drain, water cuts channels trying to find it's way to lower ground, and it settles unevenly. It is very easy for me to make ruts and parts I drive on I continually maintain.

A few weeks ago had a backhoe rental. Ground was still wet from recent rain but had to get work done while I had the big machine. Needless to say I made terrible ruts. So fast-forward to this past weekend and ground was a lot drier, but still lots of moisture. A light footstep left a perfect boot print for example, but not sloshy mud. Good enough to work it and start fixing those ruts I made. My uncle came down (heavy equipment operator for decades) and was showing me how I was back dragging with my bucket "wrong" - or at least showed me a much better way to do it. We got most of the worst parts looking pretty good in just an afternoon.

But that has me wondering how do you know when it would be better to use the bucket and back drag or use the box blade? Usually not dealing with this kind of mess, but am frequently filling/leveling/fixing some small area. He suggested if there's a lot of high spots to knock down, deep ruts to fill & pack, and a relatively large area that's just a mess, that back dragging from multiple angles would get it back to mostly flay & level the fastest. Then let it dry out some and fine tune it with the box blade.

My instinct was to leave it be until it was even drier, and then use the box blade and scarifiers (? teeth) to do that. But after him showing me a much better way to back drag vs what I had been doing, I was really surprised at how well just the bucket did.

So how do you know how dry the ground should be to do any kind of grading/smoothing/leveling? Would you choose one method over another based on 'wetness' or based on how much material needs moved only? I can just do trial & error since I'm still learning & figure it out. My little tractor runs all day on 5 gal of diesel But figured you guys who deal with similar stuff probably have some general rules of thumb you use to decide what would be the most efficient way to get something done, and how dry land should be before even messing with that kind of work.

 

[4570Man]

I do some of both. It really just depends on what you’re doing and your skill level.

 

[EddieWalker]

I bought a box blade when I first bought my land because of all the recommendations from so many people on this site. A little later on I bought my full sized loader backhoe. I hauled dirt with the backhoe bucket and smoothed it with the box blade. It was horrible. Then I dug some trenches and used the box blade to fill them. Again, it was horrible. I took out some trees and smoothed over the area with the box blade, and that too was horrible. Then one day while driving around town, I saw a city guy on a backhoe dump a load of dirt, then back drag it with his bucket. The results where perfect, quick and easy to do. So I tried it with my backhoe and I've never used by box blade since. Eventually I traded it to a friend that was happy to give it a try, and left me feeling guilty for taking advantage of him, even though I explained to him how horrible the box blade is ad doing everything it's supposed to do.

A couple tricks to using the front bucket. Learn where flat is. If you tilt the bucket up, it digs in. If you tilt it down, it floats over. You need to be able to do all three. But more importantly, you need to know where your bucket is so you can know when to dig in deeper, smooth it out, and then feather away what's left. I've built the pads for several houses and outbuildings like this up to four feet thick at the edges. One bucket is one yard on my machine. Spread it out about an inch thick, and drive over it with the front tires to compact it. Even better is when you go over it with a full bucket to put more weight on the front tires!!! 12 years ago I did this for my house and there is zero sign of settling.

Do not get your tires too high in the air. While the bucket is down, you cannot steer, but if your tires are just an inch off of the ground, you can raise the bucket enough to correct direction and still spread dirt without too much change in the finish of the dirt.

I also have a dozer, and for finish work, I prefer the backhoe front bucket.

 

[oosik]

If I'm smoothing out "spring time" ruts - a lot depends upon my skill level with the implement, how smooth I want it to be and exactly what I'm tackling. I'll use my FEL bucket, my roll over box blade, my rear blade and even my land plane grading scraper.

If I have to move a lot of dirt to fill the ruts - I'm going to use the roll over box blade. If the dirt is there but not in the rut - its the rear blade. Finally - if it has to be really smooth - its the land plane grading scraper. And if I want to pack it down after its smooth - its the FEL bucket.

Honestly - I usually just use the rear blade most of the time and will smooth it with the bucket if I want it smooth and packed.

Roll over box blade is good for moving a lot of dirt but for the life of me, I can't get it to smooth anything very well. Its a lack of my skills, I'm sure.

 

[MortOz]

has me wondering how do you know when it would be better to use the bucket and back drag

One issue when backblading is that the wheels are running over ground you haven't levelled yet, so will be following the contour of the ground - if it is rough, then those movements up and down are transmitted to the bucket, and amplified by the length of the machine. Sometimes, a better but more difficult technique is to use the bucket going forwards so that you create a flatter surface for the wheels to run over and feather the bucket to control what it moves. At the end of a run, you will have some material in the bucket to dump out and you can then backblade it over the reasonably flat surface to help finish it. Takes practice!
Even better - get yourself a cheap levelling bar and use that. They are great for this sort of work, and make it so easy. If you have a four way bucket, you can pick it up to level, drop it to move material, and grab it again to level, without leaving your seat - that's my kind of work!

 

[skipmarcy]

If you want to learn how to grade with a boxblade a lot quicker, get yourself a hydraulic toplink. Hands-down the most important piece of equipment I ever bought for my tractor next to the FEL it came with. It really helps with most other implements too. Also, don't be afraid to push dirt in reverse with a boxblade - especially with clay as running over it first with your tires makes it even more difficult to spread if not good and dry. I do back-drag with my bucket some, but not very much. I can usually get it with the boxblade the way I want it but occasionally the reach of the bucket is nice to get into some tighter spots. I also use my bucket in float to get the really fine stuff smoother when needed or to "rake" in some grass seed or whatever. Being able to fine tune your boxblade angle on the go from your seat will make a believer out of you very quickly.

 

[jeff9366]

Tractors are engineered for high stress work from the Three Point Hitch. A Box Blade will transport 4 X or
5 X as much soil per pull, over back dragging with the bucket. Box Blades USUALLY have scarifies. Box Blades take considerable time to learn to use proficiently. Only a moldboard plow has a longer learning curve.

A hydraulically operated Top Link (for blade cutting angle) and hydraulic operated lifting rod (for tilt) make Box Blading much simpler.

You cannot push with a Box Blade if your Lower Links have chain/turnbuckle stabilizers. They will break.

You need rigid, usually pin-adjustable Lower Link stabilizers in order to push, prudently, with a Box Blade.


"They went way overboard capping it with a good 8'+ of unscreened fill dirt (red clay). Tree trunks, branches, broken up concrete & asphalt are all buried there."

Consider a Ratchet Rake bucket attachment.

 

[sd455dan]

Tractors are engineered for high stress work from the Three Point Hitch. A Box Blade will transport 4 X or
5 X as much soil per pull, over back dragging with the bucket. Box Blades USUALLY have scarifies. Box Blades take considerable time to learn to use proficiently. Only a moldboard plow has a longer learning curve.

A hydraulically operated Top Link (for blade cutting angle) and hydraulic operated lifting rod (for tilt) make Box Blading much simpler.

You cannot push with a Box Blade if your Lower Links have chain/turnbuckle stabilizers. They will break.

You need rigid, usually pin-adjustable Lower Link stabilizers in order to push, prudently, with a Box Blade.


"They went way overboard capping it with a good 8'+ of unscreened fill dirt (red clay). Tree trunks, branches, broken up concrete & asphalt is all buried there."

Consider a Ratchet Rake bucket attachment.

(You cannot push with a Box Blade if your Lower Links have chain/turnbuckle stabilizers. They will break.)


I think it depends on the tractor...


I push snow in reverse in addition to dirt and in over 8 years of use have never had a problem with the chain /turnbuckles.

my Chinese tractors chain / turnbuckles have survived pushing with a 1000lb. Gannon including bending the main beam on the Gannon box blade in reverse.

Maybe some machines need better quality chain and turnbuckles??

 

[bcp]

....My uncle came down (heavy equipment operator for decades) and was showing me how I was back dragging with my bucket "wrong" - or at least showed me a much better way to do it.

....

But after him showing me a much better way to back drag vs what I had been doing, I was really surprised at how well just the bucket did.

What will it take for you to tell us this secret method?

Then I can say "That's what I do!" or "That's great. I'll try it!"

Bruce

 

[CMV]

What will it take for you to tell us this secret method?

Then I can say "That's what I do!" or "That's great. I'll try it!"

Bruce

Probably what most of you already know and i was just doing it wrong.

I was tilting the bucket down a lot. Not to fully dumped position, but a good way there. Then using backside of lip of bucket. Put some down pressure on bucket, but not enough to get front tires off the ground. For spreading loose soil that worked fine, but anything needing cut or a lot of material, the bucket would just skim over and leave a bumpy or washboard finish.

He showed me how curling the bucket up a little and using the crease in the back of the bucket for a cutting edge could work much better. Also to push that way to knock some high stuff into the rut on the way in, then drag back over it. Once it was much flatter that way, more of a level bucket spread more vs cut and evened it out well. Use all the down force I could get. Front wheels off the ground or only making occasional contact. Only going like 12-15' at a time, so no need to steer. The added down pressure made the bucket cut or spread/smear much better.

Also constant very small loader stick adjustments whole time depending on how much dirt it had, rear tires starting to slip, or pushing vs pulling. That was hardest part for me - very slight curl/uncurl moves while moving to drag or drop more/less dirt and being able to understand what was needed.

I was also going 90* across the rutted area. Drive across, drag back, move over a tractor width, repeat. He showed me how much more efficient longer passes but from all different directions worked the dirt much better and got it flat/smooth much faster than my pattern. I spent a lot of time just re positioning vs him never stopping having the bucket engaged in moving something unless it was to dump excess dirt outside the work area.

I don't really understand why the back of the bucket body worked so much better than the underside of the lip. In my mind, they should do same thing. But his way using the body of the bucket vs the lip, it didn't matter how bad the area was or how rough the ground my rear tires were on. With all that down pressure, as long as I could go without getting stuck, it left it very good with one pass vs 5-7 my way to get same results with lip.

He also noted that I would work even faster if I didn't have a SSQA type bucket. There are 2 angled pieces of steel to protect the latches on back rear of bucket. So could only curl up enough that those weren't leaving little trenches. Without those I could get an even better angle on back of backet, but it still worked very well vs what I was doing.

All our machines probably have vastly different geometry, but for mine, front bucket position with about 2-2.5" of the level indicator showing knocked off high spots and pulled a lot of material. Then about .75-1" showing did better smoothing out. Not a huge angle change, but made a lot of difference in how it left the ground after a pass. Rarely ever flat or tilted down at all unless to unload some excess dirt.