More backup generator discussion: Backing up well pump in a different structure

[grsthegreat]

ok, ive run into this same situations on several occasions, as i install lots of whole house generators. first off, one generator cannot power up 2 separately derived houses (separate meters). not allowed. it would be ok only if the property was served by one 400 amp service then using 2 separate 200 amp transfer switches. but thats too crazy to even contemplate here, because the easiest and cheapest way to do this is to run a 4 wire circuit from the new house to the well panel. make sure the well panel is permanently marked with a placard stating where power is derived from. the well pressure switch acts as a dumb switch and can care less where power is derived from.

ive done this multiple times and it works fine.

 

[rbstern]

ok, ive run into this same situations on several occasions, as i install lots of whole house generators. first off, one generator cannot power up 2 separately derived houses (separate meters). not allowed. it would be ok only if the property was served by one 400 amp service then using 2 separate 200 amp transfer switches. but thats too crazy to even contemplate here, because the easiest and cheapest way to do this is to run a 4 wire circuit from the new house to the well panel. make sure the well panel is permanently marked with a placard stating where power is derived from. the well pressure switch acts as a dumb switch and can care less where power is derived from.

ive done this multiple times and it works fine.

Why four wires? If the well pump is isolated as a single branch circuit from the new house, wouldn't it just be the two hot 120v legs and ground?

 

[RSKY]

When Irma came along, we were surprised at how long it took the county and local EMC to get everyone back online. Also, for outages where power is down but phone is up, I can still be connected to the Internet for my work, and sometimes my responsibilities to my clients are urgent enough to bear the expense for backup power.

Okay, I understand. The guy two doors down from me also works at home on a computer. He gets frantic when the power is out. I am retired. So if the power goes out on us it is no big deal. We just cope with it and make do.

One of the reasons I was asking is because of what happened to some around here in after the 2009 ice storm. We didn't have power for more than two weeks and depended on a small 4000-watt generator. Others, and not all women, thought it was the end of the world. NO INTERNET, no Facebook, no chatting, OMG what will we do!!

I spent the first six years of my life in a house without inside plumbing (for water installed in 1960, for bathroom in 1961), no telephone (installed in 1961), no air conditioning (installed 1968), well you get the idea. So it is funny to me that some spent the equivalent of a couple months wages installing whole house generator systems for what they consider necessities that aren't really necessary.

As long as you can stay warm and have something to eat and drink you can survive without power for a while.

BUT if your livelihood depends on having power that puts everything in a different category.

RSKY

 

[CobyRupert]

Well mine is to code it was inspected this summer of 17 by two different electrical inspectors. Again I do NOT have a 4th wire ground wire going to my panels connecting them.

Distracting from OP once again, but : You may be to Code under a (IMHO) rarely used exception.
The 2017 Code (Article 250.35) allows an exception: No ground conductor is required from main panel, and bonding of ground/neutral at sub panels is allowed if "there are no continuous metallic paths..." between the buildings that connected their ground systems. Essentially they allow you not to have a ground conductor (or thinking of it another way, you can use the neutral conductor for a ground fault conductor back to the transformer) if there's no way normal neutral current can use a parallel continuous metallic "ground" path.

I assume you don't use metal conduits to sub panels?
While this exception is allowed, the problem of using this comes if a future metallic connection (water, gas pipes, duct work, etc..) is installed after the inspector leaves, or years down the road and normal neutral current uses it as a path.

 

[rbstern]

Okay, I understand. The guy two doors down from me also works at home on a computer. He gets frantic when the power is out. I am retired. So if the power goes out on us it is no big deal. We just cope with it and make do.

One of the reasons I was asking is because of what happened to some around here in after the 2009 ice storm. We didn't have power for more than two weeks and depended on a small 4000-watt generator. Others, and not all women, thought it was the end of the world. NO INTERNET, no Facebook, no chatting, OMG what will we do!!

I spent the first six years of my life in a house without inside plumbing (for water installed in 1960, for bathroom in 1961), no telephone (installed in 1961), no air conditioning (installed 1968), well you get the idea. So it is funny to me that some spent the equivalent of a couple months wages installing whole house generator systems for what they consider necessities that aren't really necessary.

As long as you can stay warm and have something to eat and drink you can survive without power for a while.

BUT if your livelihood depends on having power that puts everything in a different category.

RSKY

If I was retired, I'd be less inclined to worry about it. My favorite days are the ones where I'm outside all day, and blissfully unaware of what's happening in the rest of the world.

 

[CobyRupert]

So it is funny to me that some spent the equivalent of a couple months wages installing whole house generator systems for what they consider necessities that aren't really necessary.

RSKY

Most technology (even indoor plumbing, power etc..) goes through at least 3, and usually 4 phases: 1)Luxury, 2)Convenience 3)Necessity 4)Obsolescence.
Where you are in the cycle of a particular technology varies by individual.

 

[bcp]

I would like to see the replacement for electric power and indoor plumbing, when they are obsolete.

Lights and appliances with lifetime batteries? Matter transfer toilets and faucets?

Bruce

 

[CobyRupert]

I would like to see the replacement for electric power and indoor plumbing, when they are obsolete.

Lights and appliances with lifetime batteries? Matter transfer toilets and faucets?

Bruce

Replacement and obsolescence are two different things. Rome had indoor plumbing before it didn't. Plumbing discovery reveals the rise and fall of the Roman Empire | Ars Technica
The U.S. west has water (and plumbing) right now, but....

 

[RNeumann]

How about a simple automatic transfer switch that only feeds the well? Normal power comes from the old house and when the power goes out the transfer switch switches to a circuit off the generator.
You won’t need any of the gen start features in the transfer switch as that will be handles by the “main” transfer switch.
I’ve never done this nor have I studied code enough to see if an isolated circuit can be fed by a separate service entrance. But if that’s truly code this would be a work around that I assume would meet code.
If code isn’t an issue (and I don’t think it is) I’ll stand by my first thought in one of the first posts in the thread.

 

[rbstern]

Remove the well control circuit from the old house, and control it totally from the new house. The water connecting line from the new and old houses puts both water systems in parallel. Therefore, the well could be controlled from either place. You must account for any voltage drops. As a side note, you haven't given us the size of your current pump. You must also consider how many wires will be needed; ground, two hots (240V) and maybe a start wire as is used on many bigger pumps. With this setup, you don't have to be concerned with an automated (manual) transfer switch in the old house for the well.

Note sure you mean parallel. The new house is just treated as a fixture off the single water system, like any fixture in the existing house.

Don't recall the size of the current pump (and I'm 80 miles from it at the moment). It's on a 240v 30 amp breaker, 2 hots and ground. One other wrinkle in terms of wiring it to the new house panel is the distance. It's already about 300 feet from the existing house, and the new house is another 150 feet way.