mCRD

   / mCRD #1  

TomIre

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Messages
326
Location
College Grove, TN
Tractor
Branson 3725
How is the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst different / better than a DPF system? I was told by Mahindra dealer that a DPF system cost $6k to replace and that it had a finite life. Does DOC last forever? Not having a high heat generating DPF sounds good to me but why does everyone else use it? Maybe I'm missing something?
 
   / mCRD #2  
It most likely is cost difference The mahindra runs hotter all the time to burn off the soot, Where the others run a regen cycle
 
   / mCRD #3  
Mahindra marketing has done a good job making everybody think they have escaped Tier 4 magically, and some of their dealers are a bit too "verbose" about it (my polite way to describe it) but they just use a different type of system. It's debatable what is better. Neither is as good as pre-Tier-4 obviously, and both have a lot of computer controls and sensors that are probably more of a worry than the actual type of filter or catalyst that is in the plumbing.

From what I have heard, the life of a DPF is not something most of us will ever have to worry about.

I am skeptical of a $6K replacement cost, as it would have significantly impacted the prices of new tractors if that were the case. I never saw very much price increase when Tier 4 tractors came along, not any more than we normally see with yearly price increases and new models.

I have a Tier 4 Interim tractor, which was the standard before these Tier 4 Final tractors came along. I like my tractor because it's so simple (no computer, no electronics) and have been skeptical about the Tier 4 Final tractors. However, aside from a couple models, it seems like the Tier 4 Final tractors have been fine for the most part. So I probably wouldn't let it deter me from buying a new tractor.
 
   / mCRD #4  
Interesting replies- both Kubota owners..... #2 is false and three is a stretch with a lot of conjecture.

DPF is just what it says- a filter. The “regen” tries to burn off the buildup in the filter but over time it will need serviced and or replaced. It is a known wear item- just google DPF servicing- it’s an industry! Because of the materials in the filter the replacement cost is high.
Mahindra uses a little catalytic converter to achieve the Tier 4. While not a cheap replacement it is not known as a replacement item. I don’t know if a car sold in the USA in the last 30 years that doesn’t have a catalytic converter. They are known to work well for many years.

Most over the road trucks use the DPF. The regen typically occurs while they are driving. With tractors and and other shorter trip type vehicles (fire engines come to mind) they will need the regen done manually every so often- this is a 5-20’ process. You will also need to keep DEF in the machine.
Both can be eliminated however the DPF is more involved. It senses the need to regen based on inlet and outlet pressure. So any work around will need to maintain those sensors in order to trick the computer and not throw codes. I’m not sure what would need to be done for the DEF side of things. The Mahindra would involve adding about 8” or exhaust pipe where the converter was. The converter doesn’t have a sensor in it.....that I saw anyway.
Bottom line- tens of thousands of vehicles use both technologies. Both seem to work. The DPF takes more user input (maint, regen, DEF) but it’s not the end of the world.
I wouldn’t base your decision solely on the emissions. But if you are weighing both I’m sure one will meet your needs more than the other.
 
   / mCRD #5  
Don't know about other tractors but my Kubota M7060 has a Diesel Particulate Filter but DOES NOT use DEF. I know all the newer diesel pickups have to use it, so I don't know how the Kubota engineers got away without having to include it.
But the regen process is no big deal...I notice the "regeneration" light come on in the dash and then a few minutes later it goes off. Can't tell the difference when the tractor is working, regenerating or not.
 
   / mCRD #6  
Mahindra marketing has done a good job making everybody think they have escaped Tier 4 magically, but Mahindra just uses a different type of emission system.

It's debatable what is better. Neither is as simple as pre-Tier-4 obviously, and both have a lot of computer controls and sensors that are probably more of a worry than the actual type of filter or catalyst that is in the plumbing.

From what I have heard, the life of a DPF is not something most of us will ever have to worry about.

I concur.

There are good reasons to choose one tractor brand over another, but not on emission control basis.

Contributors here grumbled as Tier IV reached the market in 2012. A few still do. Real life, there have been few owner complaints regarding Tier IV, other than the price increase the equipment instigated. A two to four horsepower increase is a bonus with Tier IV not generally acknowledged.

The average residential tractor user clocks just eighty hours per year on tractor engine, according to industry sources. I have to re-gen my Tier IV Kubota @ 2,200 rpm for SIXTEEN MINUTES ($1.00 in diesel) every sixty engine hours.
 
Last edited:
   / mCRD #7  
Interesting replies- both Kubota owners..... #2 is false and three is a stretch with a lot of conjecture.

DPF is just what it says- a filter. The 途egen tries to burn off the buildup in the filter but over time it will need serviced and or replaced. It is a known wear item- just google DPF servicing- it痴 an industry! Because of the materials in the filter the replacement cost is high.
Mahindra uses a little catalytic converter to achieve the Tier 4. While not a cheap replacement it is not known as a replacement item. I don稚 know if a car sold in the USA in the last 30 years that doesn稚 have a catalytic converter. They are known to work well for many years.

Most over the road trucks use the DPF. The regen typically occurs while they are driving. With tractors and and other shorter trip type vehicles (fire engines come to mind) they will need the regen done manually every so often- this is a 5-20 process. You will also need to keep DEF in the machine.
Both can be eliminated however the DPF is more involved. It senses the need to regen based on inlet and outlet pressure. So any work around will need to maintain those sensors in order to trick the computer and not throw codes. I知 not sure what would need to be done for the DEF side of things. The Mahindra would involve adding about 8 or exhaust pipe where the converter was. The converter doesn稚 have a sensor in it.....that I saw anyway.
Bottom line- tens of thousands of vehicles use both technologies. Both seem to work. The DPF takes more user input (maint, regen, DEF) but it痴 not the end of the world.
I wouldn稚 base your decision solely on the emissions. But if you are weighing both I知 sure one will meet your needs more than the other.

No def in the Kubota
 
   / mCRD #8  
New Holland utilizes a catalyst in the Workmaster 50/60/70 series. I've owned a 50 two years now. Not one iota of trouble with the emissions or tractor. If you research Fiat Powertrain Technologies they invented direct injection technology for diesels and sold the rights to Bosch. They build great engines.
 
   / mCRD #9  
How is the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst different / better than a DPF system? I was told by Mahindra dealer that a DPF system cost $6k to replace and that it had a finite life. Does DOC last forever? Not having a high heat generating DPF sounds good to me but why does everyone else use it? Maybe I'm missing something?

Google search is great tool... lol.

DOC is a catalytic converter. The exhaust gas passes through a material which oxidizes/breaks down the environmentally "harmful" stuff. "The diesel oxidation catalyst is designed to oxidize carbon monoxide, gas phase hydrocarbons, and the SOF fraction of diesel particulate matter to CO2 and H2O"

A DPF is a more extensive breakdown system. It usually has a DOC, then a DPF. Some systems also use Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), in addition, which is yet another addition, spraying that fluid the exhaust to further break down the "harmful" particles.
" Exhaust gas passes through the DOC and then into the DPF where Pariculate Matter is collected on the walls of the DPF. The PM collected is then oxidized to remove it from the DPF. This is known as regeneration. When operating conditions maintain sufficient exhaust temperatures, the DPF is continually self-regenerating. This is known as passive regeneration and results in clean exhaust out of the tailpipe. On very infrequent occasions, an active self-regeneration is required to remove a build-up of PM in the DPF, due to insufficient exhaust temperatures. Exhaust temperatures are raised by injecting a small amount of fuel upstream; The resulting chemical reaction over the DOC raises exhaust gas temperatures high enough to oxidize the PM from the filter."

To the best of my knowledge, the Mahindra Common Rail Diesel engine was designed with the modern electronic components to properly manage and optimize fuel used in the engine, this results in minimal excess waste, which the DOC can take care of. Specific components are things like the Bosch CB18 fuel pump which has a mechanic side to bring fuel form the tank to the pump, then an electronically controlled metering system (which receives input from multiple sensors) that limits the amount of fuel in the high pressure side and up to the fuel rail and injectors. Things like the engine speed sensor, rail pressure sensor, etc all help the ECU to fine tune the perfect amount of fuel to get to engine, but not excess. Then things like the EGR system help eliminate excess pollutants out of the exhaust before the DOC. So little to no unburned fuel and pollutants out the exhaust.

Realistically, this is all just making the engine and fueling efficient and there is no excess. That's why these tractors arent puffing black smoke like all of the old stuff. Old models did everything mechanically, where it would only grossly calibrate how much fuel was being put in to the engine, wasting more and polluting more.

It's essentially like the transition from carburetors to fuel injection. A computer monitoring and managing everything to make it as efficient as possible. Sure it's a little more "complicated" but I prefer to say complex. and yea, it can be a pain when sensors arent working or there isn't good ECU software support (which Mahindra does struggle with here in the US). But all things aside, it's actually a decent design. and it can have it's benefits.

I guess it's kind of like pick your poison, an engine with less electronics to make fuel use efficient will need the more extensive exhaust oxidation system to meet emission requirements. The other side is the use more electronics to make the engine more efficient which requires less exhaust oxidation treatment.


-Haas
 
   / mCRD #10  
It most likely is cost difference The mahindra runs hotter all the time to burn off the soot, Where the others run a regen cycle

False, that's not how it works. Actually the opposite compared to DPF.
 

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