Backhoe looking to purchase TLB for 30 acre homested

[ofenback]

-Check the brakes (can be a bigger task to fix than you might think).

-check the backhoe valve manifold for leaks. That can be a real pain to fix and expensive

- check for blow-by into the radiator or crankcase exhaust and water in any of the oils for that matter. At 4500 hours you got to think the piston rings would be worn if they haven't been replaced.

another problem I'm encountering when looking at these hoes is that there's no place to put the machine to test.
usually, I,ve got the owner or salesman standing there and I ask if there's a place I can dig or a pile of stuff I can pick up and the answer is 'no'. obviously I can't dig up a guys front lawn just to test a machine but I'm a little stifled at exactly how to test something like brakes and buckets without hills, piles to mess with and in some cases just simply being able to drive around at all.
that 580E I went to look at was sandwiched in between several other machines and no place to go.

 

[majorwager]

Google engine oil analysis. One firm is blackstone labs, $28 /test. Might be better to find local lab. Look for an authorized Cummins repair shop in your area. See who they use for engine oil analysis, see if they test hydraulic oil as well. Better to find a dedicated engine shop for cummins as opposed to a general truck repair firm.


Problem with cylinders, there is a rubber "wiper" on the outer seal that is designed to keep dirt out of the system. The wiper is often worn and this is a major issue.

 

[ofenback]

63 HP in those lowish RPM industrial engines is plenty of power for anything. My JD 310 is only a little bigger and the only chance I ever get to use more than half throttle is when I'm roading it somewhere uphill.

4500 hours is nothing on JD, Case, Cat engines. Even less of a worry for the non-turbos. If it has seen anything close to routine maintenance and use you will have no fears on the engine. Just well broken in.
The thing to check is brakes, leaks, and how does the oil/water/hydraulic fluid look. For that price I'd expect it needs tires. In fact, the only thing that concerns me at all is why is the price about half what the market goes for? What are your thoughts on that??

If it runs good now - and from the jobs you say you will have for it to do - then I'd expect that in the next few years you won't put enough hours on it to make a difference. Keeping it away from neighbors wanting to borrow it for their own projects is likely to be a larger worry.

Again, the only problem I see is what I don't see....and that's the why of the price, again.
If it checks out, grab it. You sound like a good enough mechanic to deal with routine problems.
rScotty

I think the key phrase here is "routine maintenance". does anyone actually do this?
the more I'm researching the more I agree with you regarding HP. nice to hear that you find 63HP more then enough for a 7-8 ton machine up a hill with a loaded bucket or yanking a tree up the driveway.

the "why" of the price as you asked above is most likely the condition of the machine. it was kinda spanked. I'm going to address that in my response to LEE below.

 

[ofenback]

That era of 580 tended to rust out in the floor of the cab and doors. Case also had quite a few backhoe control configurations: 5 stick, 3 stick and pedals, twin stick, etc. The 5 stick is one for piano players

They are good old work horses. Plan on doing a full service of basically everything. You'll probably have to replace quite a few hoses once your get using the machine, so find a place that can make them up for you that is close by.

thanks for the hose advice. the rust wasn't too bad and was 4 stick I'm pretty sure. I could probably get used to anything. I'm not running a race and I don't have enough time on a particular set up to be accustomed to it.

a "full service" on a TLB is basically new filter and replace hyd oil and new filter and replace engine oil correct? I was quoted approx $600 for this at the dealer who has the 580. sound about right?

 

[ofenback]

That era of 580 tended to rust out in the floor of the cab and doors. Case also had quite a few backhoe control configurations: 5 stick, 3 stick and pedals, twin stick, etc. The 5 stick is one for piano players

They are good old work horses. Plan on doing a full service of basically everything. You'll probably have to replace quite a few hoses once your get using the machine, so find a place that can make them up for you that is close by.

thanks for the hose advice. the rust wasn't too bad and was 4 stick I'm pretty sure. I could probably get used to anything. I'm not running a race and I don't have enough time on a particular set up to be accustomed to it.

a "full service" on a TLB is basically new filter and replace hyd oil and new filter and replace engine oil correct? I was quoted approx $600 for this at the dealer who has the 580. sound about right?

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

another problem I'm encountering when looking at these hoes is that there's no place to put the machine to test.
usually, I,ve got the owner or salesman standing there and I ask if there's a place I can dig or a pile of stuff I can pick up and the answer is 'no'. obviously I can't dig up a guys front lawn just to test a machine but I'm a little stifled at exactly how to test something like brakes and buckets without hills, piles to mess with and in some cases just simply being able to drive around at all.
that 580E I went to look at was sandwiched in between several other machines and no place to go.

Well if you can't test it you sure as **** ain't buying it right?

 

[ofenback]

All real good info, GS. I didn't think about rust; probably because it's rare to see rust here in Colorado. Don't know much about it.
And of course 4x4 doubles wear points as does extendahoe. Keep in mind that other than brakes, these old machines were designed to be built and rebuilt. They can be a PITA, but they are simple beasts. Lots of shop manuals available because they tend to age rather than break.

My buddy bought a basic 310 2wd standard of of that vintage on which everything worked ... but it needed attention to everything, too. If it had ever been serviced or even regularly greased it sure wasn't obvious. Over the past 3 years he has replaced a lot of pins, bushings, seals, and hoses. None of which kept him from getting a ton of work done with it. He even built a thumb for it! The upside is that it now works like a much younger machine. Probably worth more, too.

My own 310 hasn't been without maintenance. Something to consider is that parts & pieces are HEAVY. Even the batteries (2) are heavy brutes. When I took the boom cylinder off for new seals (it had been moaning for weeks) - it required another loader to lift the cylinder & put it into the trailer to take to the shop. BTW, the problem with leaky seals is less that fluid gets out than that dirt gets in. The seals on that cylinder were about half original rubber and half hardened clay dirt that had to be chiseled out. No, it didn't leak. Nor was anything damaged. Just needed cleaning & seals.

Like GSvette says, find a local hydraulic shop for hoses and cylinder seals. Half the price of dealer parts. Around here most every rural town has such a shop. Lots of times they are right there in the same area as the dealer. Here you can't quite throw a baseball from the dealership to the hydraulic shop - but you can see his front door from 4 different tractor dealerships - Case, NH, JD, & Kubota.


Along with not lacking power, these industrial machines are hard to bend or break. I don't know the 580 as well, but as powerful as the 310 is, I think it would stall before hurting itself. Clean fuel & filters, good batteries, a block heater, flush the coolant, backwash the radiator, hoses & belts. Just all the normal stuff. You buy a good tractor for low dollars & you gotta expect those things. What matters is that it continues working and that you keep your mind set on appreciating what you have when it's back into shape. You put any of those older Ag or industrial machines back into shape and it will last for generations of homeowner style work.
good luck,
rScotty

thanks scotty, that all makes sense to me

 

[rScotty]

thanks for the advice... yes money pits. I've heard it said that a 15k TLB will turn into a 25k TLB in short order...

can an oil analysis be done by a local shop or dealer?

most of these cylinders are pretty neglected and dirty. here's a pic of the BH portion of swing? cylinder on that 580E. (more on that coming soon)


is it common for folks to change fluids on these machines? all the machines I've checked out so far haven't been serviced In years. even the dealers don't service the machines when they come in and don't plan on doing it before they're sold. they want extra bread for that. again, I'm a rookie but it seems like it would be the EASIEST thing to extend the life/performance of any engine. I realized it's a PITA but gimme a break! it's a $10-20k machine.

I haven't heard anything yet that bothers me too much and I've been buying old machines for 55 years now.
Let me give you some advice:

1. Go rent a basic power washer and some serious soap and get all the old grunge off. No telling what you'll find out. Don't get a Hotsy washer unless you are familiar with them. You can do a lot of damage with a Hotsy. And be careful around labels, decals, and such. You want to keep as much of those as you can.

2. DO NOT use a power washer on or near any radiator or heat exchanger. Do those with a garden hose and SOFT brush.
3. Clean inside the operating area and scrub it up while at it. Make it nice in there. My cab took two days with brush & vacuum.

4. Get a grease gun, some chassis grease, and check how many zerks on the cleaned tractor actually accept grease. We can talk about what to do for the ones that don't. Crawl all over the tractor and make a note of how many hoses you are going to need pretty soon.

5. On most old machines the owners quit changing oil decades ago. If you are lucky, they added oil when low. Oddly enough, I've rarely found old oil - even very old oil - that has ever led to a problem I could blame on the old oil. If no oil, then yes that equals problems. But old oil seems OK. I've even had oil so old that you had to poke a hole in the grunge to get it to drain and still the engine was fine. I know it's counter-intuitive, but that's what I've found. And it is sure lucky for us guys who like old machines.

6. On oil analysis. At this point you won't get anything for your testing money because you don't know the type and age of the oil you are submitting. It could be anything; you have no baseline for the oil testing house to work with.
You can do an oil analysis later when you've run your new engine oil and filters for fifty hours or so. I use Shell Rotella Diesel oil. 10w-40. Regular, not synthetic.
Don't believe any oil analysis until you have done two of them a year apart and they are saying the same thing.

7. Change ALL oil & filters now. Get a new start so you'll know where you are. I use only dealership OEM filters - especially for the hydraulics. Yes, very expensive. So is hydraulic oil, and you need lots. Trans/hydraulic oil is the big cost, but it lasts for years. The problem is that it is sensitive to moisture. Eventually you will change the hydraulic filter again, but if it didn't see moisture then you can still run the same oil another time. So get good oil to start. I use JD 303 and NH Multi G 134. Good oils, and better than what it was designed to run on. No point in going to the super expensive stuff. Stick with old and proven.

8. If your local diesel fuel is ultra-low sulphur type - and most are today - you should know that your older engine was designed back when diesel fuel had more lubricating qualities. Be sure to run a fuel additive to replace the needed top end lubrication, not just for cold weather. This is kinda important.

9. Before deep winter happens again, get yourself some real good starting batteries. If it starts OK now, you can hold off & see how it does next winter. Those big commercial batteries are another place where commercial machines cost us real dollars, so don't charge out and grab them today. Good news is they last a long time. The Case, Cat, & JD dealer will often have a big battery sale around October when theirs will be the best price even over the discount stores.

OK. Get out the power washer & get after it...

AND ENJOY!! BECAUSE THIS ISN"T WORK, IT'S THE FUN PART! THIS IS YOUR BRAND NEW TRACTOR!
and it just might turn out to be your family's working buddy & family member for most of your life.
rScotty

 

[ofenback]

Hi, Ofenback! I just came across this thread, and though I don't think I can add much in terms of expertise, I do know Kerhonkson fairly well. Spent plenty of time over the last 30 years at the resort up on Fordmore Rd. (working and playing), so I know the steepness of the terrain and the size of the rocks around there. I currently live in N. NJ, but my family has ~35 acres over near Liberty.

One thing I may suggest is to talk to Matt over at M&H Tractors off 17 heading towards Middletown. He has a used JD 310SE 4x4 that might fit your needs(if not too small?) listed for $20k, but maybe you can talk him down a bit? He also has a Case crawler / loader that may be useful for digging out those stumps, and maybe pulling trees if the winch is in good shape.
hudson valley for sale "845 313 3378" - craigslist

If you go, tell him Lee sent you.

LEE!! funny you should mention M&H, that was Matt I went to see who's selling the 580E. long story short, seems like a nice guy and place seems reputable but that 580 might be a bit roasted for me... we'l see. the 310 looked great but at 8500 hours and $20k I'm not sure....

as soon as the fella started the 580E up, it began pissing black liquid from underneath. nice. literally the moment the engine was started. psssss

I told the guy it was pissing and asked if it was oil..he didn't seem all that surprised and certainly didn't rush to shut off the machine, he just gave a look underneath and told me it was most likely transmission fluid from the reverser seal. he explained where the leak was and that was his best guess. I just said ok, sort of stunned realizing of course this was not a good start.

the machine was dirty and neglected all the way around. the rear cylinders were so dirty I was impressed. there was still gravel and dirt sitting on the metal from the last time it was used which was last fall. rust wasn't too bad but the grease points were old and fairly dry.

maybe this is common but if I were selling this machine I would take 5 min and spray it off with the hose......
anyway, not a great indicator of maintenance.

the fella moved the buckets and everything seemed to work but obviously I wasn't interested in taking a test drive as the poor girl was losing fluid with every move.

I asked when the last time they serviced it was and he said they didn't. they bought it in the fall and used it to make a retaining wall and now are selling it. no service. later I asked Matt if it would be serviced prior to sale he said no, actually seemed like perhaps I asked a dumb question.

furthermore, as I mentioned earlier in a post, this thing was landlocked in between a few other machines and I was told there is no place to dig and it was not easily able to be driven down the road without moving several other machines.

anyway, blah blah blah,,, is this normal? any thoughts on the leak? no crystal ball so don't need to speculate too much, I just wanted to follow up and post the results of that visit and thought it was TOO FUNNNY that you mentioned M&H in your post Lee. again, I have zero beef with the dealer or Matt, he seemed polite and honest, I would be happy to purchase a machine from them just perhaps under better circumstances.

and if you'r reading this Rscotty, then this is the answer to your question about why I think the price is low. ironically, I asked if there was room to negotiate on the price and was told no, especially once the leak is fixed then they'l have even more $$ into it.

such FUN!!

 

[deezler]

No WAY. A test drive is mandatory. Spraying oil out like that... just sad.