Backhoe looking to purchase TLB for 30 acre homested

[ofenback]

hey fellas, just getting the hang of posting pics. here's a few that tell the tale a bit better then my paragraphs. I'm working my way around to answering your questions and getting back to everyone who has replied but thanks for all the info and opinions, it's given me a bunch to consider.
take a look at these pics and lemme know what ya think, and if there's any other specific pictures that would help I can try to upload another few.

thanks as always and be safe out there!

 

[ofenback]

Ofenback, you sound realistic enough to get the job done. It's just going to take looking in some unconventional & different places. You've got the land & that's the important thing.
Shucks, I'd like a Kubota U-55 myself. An excavator beats the pants off of any TLB for digging. But like you say, it isn't going to happen in most budgets.

When we had just bought our land and needed a machine but had not much cash money we started looking at ads 100 miles away in farm country and bought an old Ag tractor with a loader. It ran fine, but everything was worn. The corn farmer we got it from was using it as a stationary power source to drive a PTO-powered irrigation pump. He had parked it for that duty basically because it needed tires, & he had a newer tractor for field work. 2WD was OK because all those Ag tractors have massive traction at low speed. After all, traction in sloppy soil is what an Ag tractor is all about. Even the 2wd ones are scary impressive.

The tractor was $4K & tires & a battery another grand. I found a big heavy 3-way 3pt back blade at a local used implement dealer for another 2 thou. That was a score. My friend's 33 hp compact tractor couldn't even lift that blade on his 3pt, much less drag it in the ground. By contrast, our funky old ag tractor barely even noticed that blade was back there.

Then came the backhoe. In not much time we found several to choose from in the 2 to 4K range. We ended up with a medium small Bradco brand 3pt hoe - which turned out to be big enough.

In farming country there are always used 3pt hitch-mounted hoes on the market as well as a ready market for used ones. The trick there is that it takes something with the weight and beef of an Ag tractor to handle even a smallish real hoe on a 3pt hitch. And you have to be willing to put up with the inconvenience of the tractor and hoe not really being made to to complement each other. For example, ag tractor seats don't spin around and wouldn't do any good even if they did. You have to position the tractor, set the brakes, and climb down off the tractor.....walk around to the backhoe (which has it's own seat) - and then climb up on it, lower the stabilizers....dig for 5 minutes and then undo & repeat the whole operation in reverse to advance a few feet. But it sure beats a shovel.....

We used that Ag tractor with the blade and hoe for 15 years & got a lot of work done. Downsides are that it is a big old awkward tractor that took a dozen different arm and foot motions to get turned around. Working it was a workout in itself. This wasn't a machine made to be convenient. But the power & reliability were awesome. We eventually saved enough money to buy the machine of our dreams...a compact Kubota TLB M59.

So there are options. It's just that those farm oriented Ag tractors and their heavy implements aren't part of the 4wd compact tractor world. But they are common enough at rural farming communitiy tractor dealers and in rural newspaper ads.

My advice if you go the unconventional route is to choose the smallest and most rugged 3pt backhoe of the ones that find. And BE SURE TO TURN THE AUTOMATIC DRAFT CONTROL to OFF! when using a 3pt hoe.
Luck,
rScotty

thanks RScotty, I like the idea of looking in unconventional places. and I also like the beefyness of the AG tractors although I've heard horror stories from guys having to split them to fix something as there (supposedly) not much of a frame and I've also heard exactly what you said regarding the hoe on a 3 pt hitch. apparently folks have done some serious damage hanging a big hoe off the *** end of a tractor that was never meant to handle that kind of weight. doesn't sound like you've had much trouble with yours tho....
I don't mind the incovienience of having to do lots of maneuvering in/out/over/under/down and around the machine to do what I need, like you said, just trying to save my back and not have to dig it by hand.
let me know if these pics of rocks and stumps seem like they could be tackled with your older AG tractor and setup.
thanks!!

 

[ofenback]

A $15k 4x4 TLB will become a $25k TLB in short order. Spend another $10k-$15k and you can get a nice machine that will last you a long time. My money would be on a nice 580 Super L or M.

OUCH!! yeah I hear ya. and I'm sure you speak from experience but what's a poor boy to do? if you were me and you didn't have the cheddar would you just save your pennies for the next 5-8 years while the work piles up or blow you wad on rental? anyway that's my predicament.

 

[ofenback]

Wish list TLBView attachment 553546

that thing is soOO HOT

 

[ofenback]

It does not take much tractor weight to pull large logs or stumps from the rear/center drawbar, if you do not mind the logs getting dirty.

My L3560 in photo is 3,494 pounds, bare tractor. Photo #1.



A Log Arch allows a tractor of moderate weight to transport clean logs suspended above the dirt. Good for transport to potential saw mill.

VIDEO: tractor log arch - YouTube

PHOTOS: compact tractor log arch - Google Search

great pics and great ideas. i don't mind logs getting dirty, I can hose em off before I have to cut... but do you think a solution like that will work for the size oaks I'm dealing with? these things are big and solid as they come

 

[rScotty]

great pics and great ideas. i don't mind logs getting dirty, I can hose em off before I have to cut... but do you think a solution like that will work for the size oaks I'm dealing with? these things are big and solid as they come

What a beautiful place you have! And that road is great - very high quality. Even a small compact could maintain that good of a road summer and winter. It might need chains, but that road is basically easy.

And a mature forest is a pleasure to work in. As for the log, figure that is a standard 4" diameter coffee cup and the log comes out at about 2 foot diameter. I'd say 20 feet long from cut base to rope snotter, and then half that diameter for the next ten feet. Wet oak density is about 60 to 70 lbs/cubic foot....we multiply things out and get a log weight of 5600 to 6500 lbs. Call it 5000 to 7000 lbs just to be safe.

Well, on the flat with a log arch Jeff's L3560 compact won't have any trouble at all with that much log on a log arch - he would just have to be careful that it never got away & started to move on its own. Although that size compact would struggle to flat out lift even half that kind of weight it can certainly pull it. But on any kind of an incline and on your road I'd prefer a tractor that outweighted the log and had larger tires & brakes as well. So that puts up back into the realm of the good old Ag tractors with loader & 3pt implements...
Not the perfect solution, but it will get the work done for the next 5 to 10 years while saving money for other things. That's what's a poor boy does....
luck,
rScotty

 

[majorwager]

rScotty,
You are absolutely correct. Jeffy operates in a flat enviornment. Never used a log arch but would not attempt to do so unless the tractor weight was equilivant to the log. Never on a steep incline. Log arch can rollover, as they are narrow by design.

Jeff obviouly has not experienced an implement or load of any type, push or pull the tractor on an incline, it is certainly an underwear changing experience, the real probability of a tractor rollover. Once it begins, very difficult to alter the outcome.

Forestry skidders are heavily built for a specific purpose. Have had some success w/ smaller crawler tractors due to the lower gravity center and significant traction footprint, their instant abilty to alter direction doesn't necessarily prevent the sliding once begun, but may avert rollover.

Logging large diameter timber isn't really a recommended amateur hobby for the inexperienced and ill equipped.

In my neck of the woods, mud ladden furniture grade logs are discounted, thus discouraged.

 

[rScotty]

rScotty,
You are absolutely correct. Jeffy operates in a flat enviornment. Never used a log arch but would not attempt to do so unless the tractor weight was equilivant to the log. Never on a steep incline. Log arch can rollover, as they are narrow by design.

Jeff obviouly has not experienced an implement or load of any type, push or pull the tractor on an incline, it is certainly an underwear changing experience, the real probability of a tractor rollover. Once it begins, very difficult to alter the outcome.

Forestry skidders are heavily built for a specific purpose. Have had some success w/ smaller crawler tractors due to the lower gravity center and significant traction footprint, their instant abilty to alter direction doesn't necessarily prevent the sliding once begun, but may avert rollover.

Logging large diameter timber isn't really a recommended amateur hobby for the inexperienced and ill equipped.

In my neck of the woods, mud ladden furniture grade logs are discounted, thus discouraged.

I gotta agree with most of that - especially that operating on an incline can be an "underwear changing expeience" nice visual image, major.

Although my guess is that with Jeff's experience he probably has been on & understands inclines. The fact is that tractors on inclines are a whole different world. Compacts especially are just not built for inclines. We tractor nuts do use them on inclines though - maybe this is a case of being a little bit smart and a whole lot stupid. The thought of a log arch crosswise on an incline gives me shivers.

I know I'm about as experienced and careful of a tractor operator as half a century can make me. And in spite of that last winter I got sideways on my own inclined driveway and ended up sliding sideways about 50 feet to where it leveled out. Ditches on both sides but the big tractor stayed in the center....luckily. It's a big stable tractor, so no worry about overturning....but scary to be so out of control & going sideways.
rScotty

 

[ofenback]

I got a lead on an 87 Case 580E. got the extendable and 4x4. going to look at it now, was told it's in decent shape. it's a friend who knows the seller, friend says he trusts the guy, sold him a tractor years ago.
anyway, we'll see. it's got 4500 hrs on it and priced for 12.5, perhaps I can get it for less.

this has the cummins 4.39 and about 63 HP and I believe and the geared transmission with shuttle shift. not sure if that means it has a TC or not.

does 63 HP seem like enough to move a 7 ton machine with buckets of rocks up and down a slope for a few years?

anyway, just wanted to see what the pos/neg are for a machine like that.

thanks as always for the thoughts.

 

[ofenback]

closest dealer is approx 60 miles away.

 

[majorwager]

HP not that important w/ industrial tractors. Would suggest oil analysis. Not very expensive these day, some owners are offended. Something to hide? Rather pay for a test than an engine, Check entire tractor for leaks, especially cylinders. Seals are often worn, allow dirt into reservoir/ pump. If oil recently changed, test results are skewed. Inquire if radiator flushed, coolant changed. ? Listen for plugged injectors, some did have head gasket issues, but most of those Cummins, good motors.

Know these older BH's can be money pits, eyes wide open.

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

-Check the brakes (can be a bigger task to fix than you might think).

-check the backhoe valve manifold for leaks. That can be a real pain to fix and expensive

- check for blow-by into the radiator or crankcase exhaust and water in any of the oils for that matter. At 4500 hours you got to think the piston rings would be worn if they haven't been replaced.

 

[deezler]

I don't know much about TLBs, sorry. But whoever made your driveway originally needs a swift punch in the gut, haha. Thats some lazy work to simply roll boulders to the side and make a trench, oy.

Good luck getting a machine. A 4wd 580 for $12k sounds like a good path forward.

 

[rScotty]

63 HP in those lowish RPM industrial engines is plenty of power for anything. My JD 310 is only a little bigger and the only chance I ever get to use more than half throttle is when I'm roading it somewhere uphill.

4500 hours is nothing on JD, Case, Cat engines. Even less of a worry for the non-turbos. If it has seen anything close to routine maintenance and use you will have no fears on the engine. Just well broken in.
The thing to check is brakes, leaks, and how does the oil/water/hydraulic fluid look. For that price I'd expect it needs tires. In fact, the only thing that concerns me at all is why is the price about half what the market goes for? What are your thoughts on that??

If it runs good now - and from the jobs you say you will have for it to do - then I'd expect that in the next few years you won't put enough hours on it to make a difference. Keeping it away from neighbors wanting to borrow it for their own projects is likely to be a larger worry.

Again, the only problem I see is what I don't see....and that's the why of the price, again.
If it checks out, grab it. You sound like a good enough mechanic to deal with routine problems.
rScotty

 

[crashz]

That era of 580 tended to rust out in the floor of the cab and doors. Case also had quite a few backhoe control configurations: 5 stick, 3 stick and pedals, twin stick, etc. The 5 stick is one for piano players

They are good old work horses. Plan on doing a full service of basically everything. You'll probably have to replace quite a few hoses once your get using the machine, so find a place that can make them up for you that is close by.

 

[GSVette]

I have approximately the same vintage 580D re-engined with the BT-4 Cummins-not 4x4 but extendahoe. Probably about 1500 hours on re-engine.

Brakes can be a major cost and PITA as well as loader and backhoe valve leaks. I have re-done brakes on mine and steering control valve seals. Overhauled dipper cylinder and boom cylinders-probably put 2500 into it in 3 years. Bought for 9000.

Great machines once you get rid of the for crap gauge panel that Case inflicted on these. I have dug probably a 1000 feet of water and power line trenches and moved, placed and graded 150+ yards of gravel. Love my hoe even though she’s a bit primitive of a beast. You’ll never lack for digging/lifting and pulling power- it puts the toy backhoes on CUTs and SCUTs in their place when it comes to working big or tough jobs.

 

[rScotty]

I have approximately the same vintage 580D re-engined with the BT-4 Cummins-not 4x4 but extendahoe. Probably about 1500 hours on re-engine.

Brakes can be a major cost and PITA as well as loader and backhoe valve leaks. I have re-done brakes on mine and steering control valve seals. Overhauled dipper cylinder and boom cylinders-probably put 2500 into it in 3 years. Bought for 9000.

Great machines once you get rid of the for crap gauge panel that Case inflicted on these. I have dug probably a 1000 feet of water and power line trenches and moved, placed and graded 150+ yards of gravel. Love my hoe even though she痴 a bit primitive of a beast. You値l never lack for digging/lifting and pulling power- it puts the toy backhoes on CUTs and SCUTs in their place when it comes to working big or tough jobs.

All real good info, GS. I didn't think about rust; probably because it's rare to see rust here in Colorado. Don't know much about it.
And of course 4x4 doubles wear points as does extendahoe. Keep in mind that other than brakes, these old machines were designed to be built and rebuilt. They can be a PITA, but they are simple beasts. Lots of shop manuals available because they tend to age rather than break.

My buddy bought a basic 310 2wd standard of of that vintage on which everything worked ... but it needed attention to everything, too. If it had ever been serviced or even regularly greased it sure wasn't obvious. Over the past 3 years he has replaced a lot of pins, bushings, seals, and hoses. None of which kept him from getting a ton of work done with it. He even built a thumb for it! The upside is that it now works like a much younger machine. Probably worth more, too.

My own 310 hasn't been without maintenance. Something to consider is that parts & pieces are HEAVY. Even the batteries (2) are heavy brutes. When I took the boom cylinder off for new seals (it had been moaning for weeks) - it required another loader to lift the cylinder & put it into the trailer to take to the shop. BTW, the problem with leaky seals is less that fluid gets out than that dirt gets in. The seals on that cylinder were about half original rubber and half hardened clay dirt that had to be chiseled out. No, it didn't leak. Nor was anything damaged. Just needed cleaning & seals.

Like GSvette says, find a local hydraulic shop for hoses and cylinder seals. Half the price of dealer parts. Around here most every rural town has such a shop. Lots of times they are right there in the same area as the dealer. Here you can't quite throw a baseball from the dealership to the hydraulic shop - but you can see his front door from 4 different tractor dealerships - Case, NH, JD, & Kubota.

Along with not lacking power, these industrial machines are hard to bend or break. I don't know the 580 as well, but as powerful as the 310 is, I think it would stall before hurting itself. Clean fuel & filters, good batteries, a block heater, flush the coolant, backwash the radiator, hoses & belts. Just all the normal stuff. You buy a good tractor for low dollars & you gotta expect those things. What matters is that it continues working and that you keep your mind set on appreciating what you have when it's back into shape. You put any of those older Ag or industrial machines back into shape and it will last for generations of homeowner style work.
good luck,
rScotty

 

[LMychajluk]

Hi, Ofenback! I just came across this thread, and though I don't think I can add much in terms of expertise, I do know Kerhonkson fairly well. Spent plenty of time over the last 30 years at the resort up on Fordmore Rd. (working and playing), so I know the steepness of the terrain and the size of the rocks around there. I currently live in N. NJ, but my family has ~35 acres over near Liberty.

One thing I may suggest is to talk to Matt over at M&H Tractors off 17 heading towards Middletown. He has a used JD 310SE 4x4 that might fit your needs(if not too small?) listed for $20k, but maybe you can talk him down a bit? He also has a Case crawler / loader that may be useful for digging out those stumps, and maybe pulling trees if the winch is in good shape.
hudson valley for sale "845 313 3378" - craigslist

If you go, tell him Lee sent you.

 

[ofenback]

rScotty,
You are absolutely correct. Jeffy operates in a flat enviornment. Never used a log arch but would not attempt to do so unless the tractor weight was equilivant to the log. Never on a steep incline. Log arch can rollover, as they are narrow by design.

Jeff obviouly has not experienced an implement or load of any type, push or pull the tractor on an incline, it is certainly an underwear changing experience, the real probability of a tractor rollover. Once it begins, very difficult to alter the outcome.

Forestry skidders are heavily built for a specific purpose. Have had some success w/ smaller crawler tractors due to the lower gravity center and significant traction footprint, their instant abilty to alter direction doesn't necessarily prevent the sliding once begun, but may avert rollover.

Logging large diameter timber isn't really a recommended amateur hobby for the inexperienced and ill equipped.

In my neck of the woods, mud ladden furniture grade logs are discounted, thus discouraged.

great advice and will be well heeded by me for SURE. I'm trying to enjoy this place, not die here under a tractor due to recklessness.

just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I would be "logging" large diameter timber or selling them for use by furniture manufacturers, just that I gotta get these trees off the dang banks so I can get em cleared and scape the driveway for better visibility, stability and drainage etc..

and in 99% of the instances i'l be dragging logs up the driveway with the banks still intact on either side keeping me somewhat safe in a little chute with nowhere to go but down. sounds dumb but my point is i'l never be sideways on the incline with or without a log arch.

the part about milling the lumber is somewhat ancillary. in essence, everywhere I look is a big tall beautifully straight tree and it's right in my way. many times it's right where I want to put up a shed, garage, cottage etc.. so the milling aspect is sort of palm to forehead territory.
in other worlds, it don't take a rocket surgeon to realize I should turn these trees into my outbuildings.

I don't even have a mill yet and when and if I do get one it will be the size/cap of a woodmizer LT-15 or similar. hardly the kind of thing for commercial productivity. anyway, in the meantime I've got a buddy with a portable HD-36 (I think?) so he'l be handling some of this for now...but that's a whole other thread!

anyway, thanks for your input, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[ofenback]

HP not that important w/ industrial tractors. Would suggest oil analysis. Not very expensive these day, some owners are offended. Something to hide? Rather pay for a test than an engine, Check entire tractor for leaks, especially cylinders. Seals are often worn, allow dirt into reservoir/ pump. If oil recently changed, test results are skewed. Inquire if radiator flushed, coolant changed. ? Listen for plugged injectors, some did have head gasket issues, but most of those Cummins, good motors.

Know these older BH's can be money pits, eyes wide open.

thanks for the advice... yes money pits. I've heard it said that a 15k TLB will turn into a 25k TLB in short order...

can an oil analysis be done by a local shop or dealer?

most of these cylinders are pretty neglected and dirty. here's a pic of the BH portion of swing? cylinder on that 580E. (more on that coming soon)

is it common for folks to change fluids on these machines? all the machines I've checked out so far haven't been serviced In years. even the dealers don't service the machines when they come in and don't plan on doing it before they're sold. they want extra bread for that. again, I'm a rookie but it seems like it would be the EASIEST thing to extend the life/performance of any engine. I realized it's a PITA but gimme a break! it's a $10-20k machine.