5085e PTO doesn't engage

   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage #1  

KY Gun Geek

Silver Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
114
Location
Lexington, KY
Tractor
JD 5105, JD 5055D, 2 JD 5085M's, JD 5085E, JD 5093E, JD 5115M
Bought a new to me 5085e with from a dealer with about 635 hours 4 weeks ago. Don't know anything about history (other than the JD system says a parking pawl was fixed under warranty at about 125 hours).

Weather here has been crappy (cool wet spring) which has curtailed much tractor activity. Grass is finally growing so yesterday tied the batwing to the new guy and started to work. Immediately noticed that the PTO engagement was less crisp (violent?) than either my 5085M or 5093e. Worked for a couple days, maybe 12 - 15 engagement cycles. Today engagement went from soft to non existent.

Failure Mode: Tractor at idle, pull the PTO switch, driveline barely rotates then stops. Tractor immediately beeps 3 times and a light on the dash comes on. It is red and diamond shaped. Manual calls it a "Service Alert Indicator" - very descriptive. Not sure if it goes out on its own - does go out if PTO switch is moved to off. That's it.

Hydro filter and fluid have been changed (part of sale deal). oil looked good in sight glass then - looks good now (color and level)

Tomorrow I'm going to be sure the batwing is ok by rotating driveline by hand, and maybe hooking to another tractor (didn't check today because I didn't see any binding or other issues - I have seen what happens when there is frozen gear box connected to a PTO and it aint pretty). Also will do a little more careful observing on just what works and doesn't - lights, beeps, etc.

Don't think this is electrical - with no load PTO engages (you can see shaft turning), dash light comes on, and shows RPM on the dash. No, I'm not going to grab it and see how much resistance it has when turning.

Other things I should check? - looking for simple stuff, adjustment etc - before I get a dealer involved (different than the one that sold it). I'm hoping I didn't get a tractor with a bad PTO clutch, but it kinda feels that way.

Thanks for your suggestions!
 
   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage #2  
you might want to check on is the seat safety switch. My JD it was giving me some issues especially when cold outside because the seat would stiffen up and it would do the same thing. Enough to see it engage and then immediately shut down. I ended up putting a jumper wire between the two leads to the safety switch with an On/Off switch in it so I could easily diagnose if that was the problem and I could run the PTO while off the tractor if needed.
 
   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Had the tractor hauled in to a JD dealer. I gave them the same info you have above.

They called me the next day and asked what kind of fluid was put back in the tranny in the recent change. Their tech said what came out was the wrong color and too thin.

Well, went poking around found work order in my sale papers that show a New Holland oil (Mastertran Ultratraction, NH 73341774) had been used. JD specs HY-Gard. Did a little more investigation and couldn't find an OEM (Deere or New Holland) published cross ref, but did find a few 3rd party charts like this one: http://crs.coopconnection.ca/files/SpringOilChart.pdf. It seems that a product called Multi-G 134/Mastertran is a better fit. Also couldn't find anything that says whether Ultratraction meets the J20/J30 Specs. Hmmmmmm

The dealer I bought the tractor from is a New Holland and Kubota dealer - they do some Deere stuff when Green traded in on Blue or Orange.

Well, the Deere dealer changed the fluid and things seem to be working great. Hmmmmmm

The NH dealer changed the filters and their work order says they used Deere parts for that.

FWIW, when I first had the problem, I asked the NH dealer to get involved, and they said the sale was "As is" and they weren't going to do anything to help. Now, I have asked them to reimburse me for the pick up, delivery, tech time, testing time, fluids, filters, etc. since the problem was the direct result of their questionable use of a substitute oil. That was today. We'll see what happens.

Frankly, I expect any dealer's shop to know better than to do something like this. Usually, dealers are very righteous when discussing OEM parts. Ask one to talk about Tractor Supply or Rural King oil and see what you get back. I guess they figured they would make a buck by selling me a NH product instead of literally going across the road to the JD dealer and getting the correct fluid. They had to go and get the filters, why not the **** oil!
 
   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage #4  
. . . I guess they figured they would make a buck by selling me a NH product instead of literally going across the road to the JD dealer and getting the correct fluid. They had to go and get the filters, why not the **** oil!
Because, they think that they are smarter than you!

I'm glad you got it fixed, anyway.
 
   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage
  • Thread Starter
#5  
This thing just got a little stranger!

Get the tractor back. Heat it up doing some other stuff, connect up the batwing, and guess what - yep same issue! Tractor tries to engage PTO then gives up and starts beeping. Later in the day (temp about 85, mowing for 2 hours) I had to run the rpm up to 2200 to get it to hold - this is after talking to the dealer.

Call the JD dealer. They ask (among other things) what RPM I'm starting the PTO. My answer is at idle. They say that is the problem - you need to start the PTO with the tractor turning 1500 or so. They say they tested the tractor on a dyno and it hand no problem (ran it 2 hours, then flipped the pto off then back on). They tell me the new tractors are "different"- they don't have as much torque and you have to run them this way. I can't imagine it takes lots of engine torque to start a batwing at idle. **** - I can turn it by hand!

OK - so, this may be an issue of an old dog not learning a new trick, but, my other 4 pieces of JD iron would make wheaties out of the gear boxes of the batwing or a manure spreader if you did that. Last winter, an employee sheared 3 bolts out of manure spreader with a 5055D doing this very thing. In fact, I lowered the idle on my 5093e to keep it from destroying the batwing (this is a 15' which will jump off the ground when you engage the PTO at normal idle of 800 or so).

The other thing to stress is that this appears to be very temperature dependent. Today just after starting the tractor in the morning, I flipped on the pto that was connected to a batwing. Guess what - works almost the same as the other tractors (though not quite as violent). Perhaps higher temp = lower hydro fluid viscosity? Seems like running the engine rpm is also building hydro pressure helping the clutches hold - compensates for the thinning of the fluid.

OK - questions for you guys - particularly owners of 2014 5085e's

1) Does it sound right to you that normal operation is to run the rpm up high, then engage the pto?
2) If you don't do 1, what happens?
3) Does your pto engage violently enough that you are concerned about hurting what ever is connected?
4) Have you seen this kind of slipping/non engagement behavior before? What was the source?
5) Given the observation of temperature or fluid viscosity, is there an adjustment of the pressure delivered to the PTO clutch?

Thanks in advance for your help - this has me stumped, and I need to be mowing grass!
 
   / 5085e PTO doesn't engage
  • Thread Starter
#6  
The rest of the story!

Turns out, the jd dealer was full of crap.

I took the tractor to another jd dealer. They diagnosed it as a known issue with the pto control valve. There was a “pip” - a service advisory, etc.

Though the tractor was out of warranty, jd covered the parts, I paid the labor ($300).

Of the $1400 bill from the first jd dealer, I paid them about $600 - hydraulic fluid change (1, not 2), diagnose and repair of 4wd indicator light (fuse and computer reset), and transport.

Not going to name these guys, but they are a decent size chain in ky (and nearby). There are 4 locations within 40 miles of me!

They actually said “these new tractors are different - you just don’t get it”.

Harrumph!

Since this happened, I bought another 5085m and a 15’ batwing from the second dealer. We’re talking like $60k worth of stuff.

What dorks!
 

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