JD 4200 fuel injector pump problem

[gimmodog]

My JD 4200 has sat for a couple of yrs and now when I tried starting it it has no fuel coming out of the injector pump. It ran fine when I parked it. It has the Yanmar 3TNE78A-JT42 3 cyl engine. I do not think this is an air problem. I have installed an electric fuel pump so I know it is getting good fuel pressure to the injector pump without air and it is a self priming engine (which I know works because I have ran it out of fuel before and it primed itself). I took off the shutoff solenoid and found that the lever it controls inside the injector pump only moves maybe 1/16". Since I also have a running JD 4300 I took the solenoid off it to compare and the lever on it moved about 1/4". The 4300 would run with the shutoff solenoid off but this one (the 4200) will still not get any fuel out of the injector pump (the lines to the injectors have been removed for troubleshooting). would anyone know if 1/16" movement is enough to open the fuel shutoff inside the pump. I have read somewhere in my research about delivery valves possibly being clogged. I am assuming that these are the top section where the injector lines connect (the grey area of the picture of the top). My question about the delivery valves is "are they removable without causing any problems" in order make sure they are clean and operable. I did fill the delivery valves orifices with a diesel supplement and it did NOT drain down so I am assuming all 3 are in the closed position (again I assume they open and close), also there was no fuel in the lines to the injectors when I removed them. Other than air in lines this is the first problem I have had with fuel delivery therefore I am a novice with injector pump problems. There is what looks like a cover on the side of the pump that I am not sure if I should remove to have a look inside or not. Is it ok to remove this cover to get a view of the inside? I have attached pics of the pump. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yes its ok to remove the cover, BUT.. those screws are VERY tight & you need a hand impact driver, a hammer & a small Phillips head bit.
NO NEED to pull the side cover tho..in most cases.
Just reach in w/ "something" & push & pull on the control rack WHILE SOMEONE cranks the engine..
The fuel coming in, will probably lube the stuck plungers..
Seeing it moves "some" is a good sign.. DONT just keep pulling on it while its stationary.. The fuel & parts have to be moving inside inorder for it to free-up.. So crank the engine while doing it..
Good luck & post back once you get it running..

 

[gimmodog]

Yes its ok to remove the cover, BUT.. those screws are VERY tight & you need a hand impact driver, a hammer & a small Phillips head bit.
NO NEED to pull the side cover tho..in most cases.
Just reach in w/ "something" & push & pull on the control rack WHILE SOMEONE cranks the engine..
The fuel coming in, will probably lube the stuck plungers..
Seeing it moves "some" is a good sign.. DONT just keep pulling on it while its stationary.. The fuel & parts have to be moving inside inorder for it to free-up.. So crank the engine while doing it..
Good luck & post back once you get it running..

I have the impact. would it help to take the cover off and shoot the internals with some penetrating oil? gonna try pushing and pulling first. What do you think about clogged delivery valves is that a possibility and can they be removed without damaging anything?


I pushed and pulling for a good 20-30 minutes, new battery now cranking slow, will pull on it some more after it charges some. seems like it may be moving a little more but that may just be my imagination and wishful thinking. I did notice that it moves less while cranking doesn't seem to spring back while cranking, stop cranking and will spring back but still not much which is puzzling to me.

I got the lever to move more but still not sure if it is opening up or not.

 

[gimmodog]

Next I'm going to take off the side cover and have a look see inside it and take off the delivery valves. If they are clean and not sticking then I am at a loss. all the time it was cranking the diesel supplement I poured into the valve orifices did not drain down. This could be that it is still in the shutoff position

 

[thepumpguysc]

Wow.. it sounds like those plungers are stuck good..
Go ahead & take off the side cover.. you'll get a better idea of how things work..
The deliv, valves are spring loaded shut.. your not gonna get anything down thru the top..

 

[gimmodog]

found this video from a thread about a JD 4600. Does the Yanmar 4200 pump shutoff work the same way? VID 219 1821 - YouTube

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yes.. you see those "things" moving back & forth?? They're call "segments" they are connected to the pumping plungers..
.. they move side to side while the camshaft moves the plungers up & down to pump fuel.
The side to side action is controlling HOW MUCH fuel goes out..
DO NOT loosen the screws on the segments!! EVER.. They control the equal delivery between cylinders & you need a teststand to get them set.
You'll probably find the culprit cylinder/ers when you remove the cover.. the stuck ones will be stuck "up"..
I DONT recommend hammering them down.. the metal inside isn't very strong & things start to break quite easily..
Its best to keep lubing & working the rack or prying lightly on the segments.. and bumping the engine over a few rotations.. so the pump cam can get into diff. positions..
See how THAT works out for ya & if nothing happens we can go deeper.. DONT go unscrewing anything willey nilley.. theres a smart/proper way to fix this.. but if you do, you can get into trouble QUICK,{$$$}

 

[Egon]

On the 4200 the fuel solenoid activates the injector pump pistons. It does not function as a fuel shutoff.

Do you get a nice loud click when the key is turned on?

 

[gimmodog]

solenoid functions as it should. it has been removed until I get it running. there must be something inside of the pump stuck causing the pump to think it is still in the shutoff position.

I am working on it outside and it is raining off and on so may not get to do much today

 

[thepumpguysc]

The solenoid pushes the control rack, which turns the segments, which turns the pumping plungers, so it doesn't PUMP any fuel..
The solenoid doesn't actually turn off the fuel.. SOME machines have a solenoid in the fuel inlet line, that actually shuts off the fuel going TO the injection pump.. BUT we're not talking about them..

 

[gimmodog]

ok I have info to get some instructions for my next move. I took the side cover off and as I turn it over #3 is moving up and down #1 & #2 are stuck in the up position and the segments will not move side to side. They are stuck in the counterclockwise position. As I push in the lever the solenoid controls they will turn clockwise only about 1/16". I did get the pistons below the springs to drop but the springs still stayed in the up position.I did not take off the top fuel line connections to get to the delivery valves yet but I am thinking that is my next move to take them out and shoot some penetrating oil down from the top, just wanted to get some advise/instructions before going any further and do it right without doing any damage. I did slightly pry on the #1 segment to see if it would move any more but was afraid to put much pressure on it. I have read where someone had the segment off by a couple teeth from where it should be so I didn't want to cause it to slip a tooth. Is it the control rack that usually sticks or is it the pumping plungers sticking not letting the control rack turn them?

 

[thepumpguysc]

The plungers stick..
I guess your next step is the top.. remove the delivery valve holders..DO IT 1 AT A TIME..
under the holder you'll see a spring, a gasket & a delivery valve..
The DV is made up of 2 pcs.. a valve & a body.. Use a pair of needle nose & cock the DV body to the side before pulling out..
Spray your fav. pen. oil in & wait afew minutes..You can use a small punch to tap the plunger down.. spray it down again..
Reinstall the DV & spring & holder & snug it down.. Now move on to the other one & repeat..
Now move the rack.. Repeat as nec..
CAUTION.. DO NOT rotate the pump or engine with the DV holders out.. the "barrels" that the plungers ride in, float in the housing & are held stationary by a soft lead pin.. IF you rotate the pump w/ a sticking plunger, it grabs the barrel & moves it out of its groove..
JUST REMEMBER.. tighten/snug the DV holders up before rotating the pump or bumping the engine..
Once you get the rack free>> TORQUE the holders to 30-35FTlbs.. & make a check out to "TPG"..{LOL}.. Good luck

 

[gimmodog]

The plungers stick..
I guess your next step is the top.. remove the delivery valve holders..DO IT 1 AT A TIME..
under the holder you'll see a spring, a gasket & a delivery valve..
The DV is made up of 2 pcs.. a valve & a body.. Use a pair of needle nose & cock the DV body to the side before pulling out..
Spray your fav. pen. oil in & wait afew minutes..You can use a small punch to tap the plunger down.. spray it down again..
Reinstall the DV & spring & holder & snug it down.. Now move on to the other one & repeat..
Now move the rack.. Repeat as nec..
CAUTION.. DO NOT rotate the pump or engine with the DV holders out.. the "barrels" that the plungers ride in, float in the housing & are held stationary by a soft lead pin.. IF you rotate the pump w/ a sticking plunger, it grabs the barrel & moves it out of its groove..
JUST REMEMBER.. tighten/snug the DV holders up before rotating the pump or bumping the engine..
Once you get the rack free>> TORQUE the holders to 30-35FTlbs.. & make a check out to "TPG"..{LOL}.. Good luck

I think I messed them up. I got them freed up and the rack is working as it should BUT I didn't realize that the plungers are only the center 1/4" diameter section. I was pushing down on the whole part inside the housing and the outer section along with the plungers dropped about an 1/8" and now goes up and down with the springs. It is probably what you are calling a barrel and I broke the lead pin. I did get the plungers loose from this section afterwards. TPG did I mess it up? Is there anyway that could be pushed back in place without the pump off for a teardown? If the lead pin is broke then I know it can't be pushed back in place. If I need to pull the pump I do not have a puller small enough to pull it off the gear and none of the local auto stores carry one that will work. I was going to take it off to be repaired before I started trying to fix it myself. If it does need to come off now please tell me where I can get a puller small enough to get inside the housing to pull the gear.

 

[gimmodog]

after thinking about what I done I am sure I at least moved the barrel out of its groove. After the outer section (probably the barrel) dropped the 1/8 inch I thought it was free so I bumped the starter to see. It was actually still stuck so it probably moved it out of its groove. Looks like it will have to be removed and repaired. I hope thepumpguysc knows where I can get the small puller that will fit thru the access hole to pull the gear

I want to give my thanks to thepumpguysc for the excellent advice, warnings & instructions.
I made the decision of using a socket to tap on the plunger instead of a small punch as suggested. Turned out to be a very costly mistake.

TPG I hope you do repairs for other members of TBN. Looks like I will need someone to repair mine.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Well, that's what we get when we try to do brain surgery over the web.. SOMETIMES the patient dies..
I can probably fix it..
You HAVE TO TIME THE PUMP TO THE ENGINE BEFORE YOU PULL IT..
Rotate the engine over BY HAND until the #1 tappet/roller in the pump starts to move.. its the thing lowest in the bottom of the pump you can see w/ the side cover off.. Now STOP.. look for marks on the gears or front balancer..
Once you find the marks, rotate the engine until they line up..
Look on your pump mounting flange, there should be a timing mark/line that lines up w/ one on the block?? IF NOT, make one.
Is there ANY WAY you can get a brass punch on the front nut of the inj. pump?? & enough room to swing a hammer??
That'll keep you from buying a puller.. Just take off the nut & washer, put the nut back on flush, loosen/back out the 4 bolts holding the pump on about 4-5 turns & wack the nut.. It should free up from the gear..
Can you snap a pic of the front timing cover & gears & either post it or send it to my email?? Just put> at a o l dot com after my screen name in your home mail server..

 

[thepumpguysc]

If you hammered the sh*t outta it, its possible you broke the pump housing??
LOOK up in the pump thru the side.. up where the spring rides.. is it cracked or smashed, drooping down??
That's where the barrel sits.. Can you snap a pic??

 

[gimmodog]

housing pic is a little blurry but each pic I took was blurry . I can see the barrel housing circulars in the housing casting and neither of them look damaged It looks like there is no damage to the housing. I had it filled good with aero-kroil and did not have to tap very hard for the barrels to come out If you can install barrels then I guess it can be fixed. I have the brass cylinder and hammer to see if I can pop it loose with a jolt. Will have to pull the radiator to be able to get a swing at it, probably would of had to remove it to get to it with a puller anyway. Pullers are fairly cheap so wouldn't mind buying one if I could just find one small enough to go inside the housing access hole but if it will jolt free then good. It is only about a 2 1/2" access hole. I do have the service manual for the tractor also. Will get started on it very soon. Will send you an email also

 

[Green N Orange]

I read these replies and was able to get my deere 4400 pump unstuck and i t started right up. thanks to all.

 

[beenthere]

:welcome: to TBN "Green N Orange"

Thanks for filling us in with your success.

 

[Michael.conley1033]

I had the same issue but I fixed mine. Problem is, now my housing is leaking and I can’t find a part number for the housing side cover or size ring/gasket to replace the old one. I’ve looked everywhere. Even John Deere ag pro couldn’t help me. Anyone on here know?