Neighbors behaving badly

[newbury]

And so it goes -
They paved Camelot and put up a parking lot.

 

[MossRoad]

I have property on the edge of this former wetland. It's a large sand dune, as are most of any hills in this area. It's a really unique area. We have a river in town that comes south out of Michigan, then turns north again and runs to Lake Michigan, about 30 miles away. On the north and east sides of town, all drainage goes into that river, and eventually goes over Niagara Falls, and out into the North Atlantic. On the west and south of town, all drainage goes towards the Kankakee river, which drains into Illinois, where it joins the Des Plaines River to form the Illinois River. That empties into the Mississippi, which drains into the Gulf of Mexico. Southeast of town, around the OP's area, things drain into the Yellow River, which drains into the Kankakee River about 50 miles southwest of here.

So, most people don't know it, but there's a continental divide running through South Bend, Indiana.

 

[MossRoad]

Then there's the draining of the Great Black Swamp in Northwest Ohio.... but that's another story.

 

[Jstpssng]

Around here they are starting to bring those old wetlands back.
For some really interesting reading though, check out "Three against the Wilderness. Three Against the Wilderness | James Stewart explores the legacy of Eric Collier
It's a pretty interesting book about one family's life and ordeal to bring back wetland wildlife habitat in BC, Canada.

 

[MossRoad]

They can't bring this one back. They can bring small bits here and there back, but when they blew out that rock ledge over in Illinois, it basically drained northwest Indiana. There are too many towns, homes, farm lands, etc... They can't build berms to keep water back from the river, because the soil is all sand and drains back out. About the only thing they can do is block off some of the side drainage channels to raise the water levels, but that effects massive tracts of land and eventually floods out farms.

 

[Einthewoods]

I suspect he meant "way more to lose than gain on meeting a neighbor who has already shown himself to be an inconsiderate jerk."

Some neighbors you want to hold close; most others, be casually friendly and helpful; a few are best kept at a far distance.

Inconsiderate jerk? He doesn't even know the guy, and neither does anyone on this thread. He could be a fantastic guy that doesn't know the consequences of what he is doing (if there are actually any). He is trying to drain water out of his yard into the drainage ditch. Would seem reasonable to most people. And you call him a jerk without knowing him? Good grief. I'm sure he will be now.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Inconsiderate jerk? He doesn't even know the guy, and neither does anyone on this thread. He could be a fantastic guy that doesn't know the consequences of what he is doing (if there are actually any). He is trying to drain water out of his yard into the drainage ditch. Would seem reasonable to most people. And you call him a jerk without knowing him? Good grief. I'm sure he will be now.

When you don't know someone personally, all you can do is judge by their actions. But you're right, maybe he's a sterling character who didn't realize his project could impact others in a negative way. I guess we'll find out if OP keeps us posted.

 

[TheMan419]

So OP will keep you posted.....

First off this is the only neighbor I do not know. Most of the rest have either stopped by when we were moving in or some time soon after to say hi. Others we have met while taking a walk or whatever. This one... keeps his distance.

I had a long talk with the inspector from the drainage board yesterday. Adding water to the ditch the way the guy is doing it is legal, from the county's perspective. However it may still be a wetlands issue. The County guy said that is not his area and he is not going to do anything about that.

Turns out the inspector I talked to was friends with the guy we bought our property from. So he is VERY familiar with the drainage in the area. He indicated the amount of water that would be added to the ditch by the neighbor's actions is not going to have an effect on our property. There is plenty of capacity in the ditch. However they are going to come inspect to make sure nothing was pushed into the ditch from this "construction". Of course if there was that could cause a dam which would be problematic. The county will then deal with remediation.

I also learned the second short ditch I have on my property is NOT a county ditch but a private ditch. So I can do what I want with that. There was a permit pulled back in the day to properly connect that ditch to the county owned and maintained ditch so it is legal. That gives me a lot of options to drain water from my property if necessary.

I talked to the inspector about a drainage project I have been thinking of and how it would affect those down stream from me. It would drain about 4 acres into my ditch (which would then flow into the county maintained ditch). He said again there is plenty of capacity in that ditch and 4 acres of surface water is nothing so it would be no problem.

I estimate I will have to move 20-30 yards of dirt to do what I want to do. Of course that is after clearing some trees..... I suspect my little 24hp New Holland is going to be a wee bit under-powered for that particular task. Darn I might have to rent a mini-ex or something.

All in all I learned a LOT about drainage and ditches that I did not know before.

Of course it makes me wonder why the private ditch I have was dug as a ditch and not put in as tile....

 

[MossRoad]

Nice! :thumbsup:

 

[CobyRupert]

First it would seem to be a violation of some federal wetlands act or the other.

... Since we are basically the head of the ditch I do not think that is going to cause a problem for water backing up into my property, but I am not sure of that fact.

I had a long talk with the inspector from the drainage board yesterday. Adding water to the ditch the way the guy is doing it is legal, from the county's perspective. However it may still be a wetlands issue. The County guy said that is not his area and he is not going to do anything about that.

Do I have this right?
So a neighbor, who you don't know, or have approached to civilly discuss the issue, is doing something legal on his own land that doesn't effect you - in your own words and the county inspectors, and doing something that sounds very similar to what you want to do. And you're running around trying to get him into legal trouble, but you just can't find anyone to take your case.

..but you're holding out, pressing on, siccing inspectors on him, just itching to find something to get him in trouble with. Your last hope: "Wetlands!" It's just got to be "a violation of some federal wetlands act or the other."

 

[MossRoad]

Do I have this right?
So a neighbor, who you don't know, or have approached to civilly discuss the issue, is doing something legal on his own land that doesn't effect you - in your own words and the county inspectors, and doing something that sounds very similar to what you want to do. And you're running around trying to get him into legal trouble, but you just can't find anyone to take your case.

..but you're holding out, pressing on, siccing inspectors on him, just itching to find something to get him in trouble with. Your last hope: "Wetlands!" It's just got to be "a violation of some federal wetlands act or the other."

No, you don't have it right. Not even close.

 

[Diggin It]

Do I have this right?

Not the way I read it. I see it as he wasn't sure, so he asked questions before doing anything further.

 

[Einthewoods]

Do I have this right?
So a neighbor, who you don't know, or have approached to civilly discuss the issue, is doing something legal on his own land that doesn't effect you - in your own words and the county inspectors, and doing something that sounds very similar to what you want to do. And you're running around trying to get him into legal trouble, but you just can't find anyone to take your case.

..but you're holding out, pressing on, siccing inspectors on him, just itching to find something to get him in trouble with. Your last hope: "Wetlands!" It's just got to be "a violation of some federal wetlands act or the other."

Only thing I think you missed is that the suspected law breaker was an inconsiderate jerk. :laughing:

 

[CobyRupert]

No, you don't have it right. Not even close.

Thanks, I thought I might of missed something so I went and reread every post from the OP. Yep, I missed that there is some concern about debris, though we don't know the extent of what this debris might be or have any pictures.
What else?

 

[Coyote machine]

Whose the Goose, and whose the Gander here?
Have we slaughtered the Golden Goose yet? Will there be some lynching' going on?
Bring in the Blackhawks!

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I have property on the edge of this former wetland. It's a large sand dune, as are most of any hills in this area. It's a really unique area. We have a river in town that comes south out of Michigan, then turns north again and runs to Lake Michigan, about 30 miles away. On the north and east sides of town, all drainage goes into that river, and eventually goes over Niagara Falls, and out into the North Atlantic. On the west and south of town, all drainage goes towards the Kankakee river, which drains into Illinois, where it joins the Des Plaines River to form the Illinois River. That empties into the Mississippi, which drains into the Gulf of Mexico. Southeast of town, around the OP's area, things drain into the Yellow River, which drains into the Kankakee River about 50 miles southwest of here.

So, most people don't know it, but there's a continental divide running through South Bend, Indiana.

Interesting...

 

[ChiefBodie]

What else?

Is the OP consulting or asking the neighbor first before he alters his ditches, removes trees, and moves 20-30 yards of material?

Unless he consults the neighbor first, how does doing that differ from what was originally complained about?

 

[ChiefBodie]

mention "trout stream."

You generously give a lot of good advice here. Thank you on behalf of all.

But moving down the darkened path of deception is behavior below the fine upstanding person you are. Please reconsider.

 

[Diggin It]

Is the OP consulting or asking the neighbor first before he alters his ditches, removes trees, and moves 20-30 yards of material?

Unless he consults the neighbor first, how does doing that differ from what was originally complained about?

I had a long talk with the inspector from the drainage board yesterday. Adding water to the ditch the way the guy is doing it is legal, from the county's perspective.

-------------

I also learned the second short ditch I have on my property is NOT a county ditch but a private ditch. So I can do what I want with that. There was a permit pulled back in the day to properly connect that ditch to the county owned and maintained ditch so it is legal. That gives me a lot of options to drain water from my property if necessary.

---------------

I talked to the inspector about a drainage project I have been thinking of and how it would affect those down stream from me. It would drain about 4 acres into my ditch (which would then flow into the county maintained ditch). He said again there is plenty of capacity in that ditch and 4 acres of surface water is nothing so it would be no problem.

That's how.

 

[ChiefBodie]

My post addressed the issue of communication from one neighbor to another, in both directions. That seems missing here. If you understand that, perhaps you will understand your response does not address that.

I was taught to bring issues directly to the other person. Solve them without expanding if that is not needed. Advice here includes making anonymous calls and incident reports, engage in deception, etc. These are not good for the soul nor for good neighbor relations. It is only a hard concept for some. It might be possible to be a good neighbor, but also maybe not. But if there is no communication these is not even the chance for that.