Loader My loadeer seems to be a little weak

[Looking4new]

The loader on my 2012 Kioti seems to be a little weak. The bucket wont curl like it did 6 years ago. The Hydraulic oil is full to the mark.
Is there any way to increase the flow of oil to the curl cylinders without doing damage to the HST?

 

[oldnslo]

Does the bucket drift - dump with a load on it or does it hold position? If it drifts or dump the piston seals on the cylinders are potentially worn and leaking which could also limit the curl force.

Can you still lift the same amount as when it was new? IF no then I would get a gauge and check the system pressure. Low pressure will effect both the lift and curl.

 

[Fallon]

HST is a completely separate circuit than the rest of tractor hydraulics. It shares the common sump & fluid, but that's it. So unless you contaminate things with having a or metallic particulates, you aren't going to blow up your HST if you do naughty things to the rest of your hydraulics

 

[Looking4new]

I haven't noticed any 'drift', but the bucket will not curl when I go into the pile.

It s good to know that the HST wont be affected by 'tinkering' with the pump.
I guess I will have to find a gauge.

Next question; where is the relief valve on it?

 

[LD1]

Just a note....

Increasing flow will NOT increase power.

Flow = Speed
Pressure = Power

You need a gauge. IF you are reaching the right pressure and it is still weak....cylinders might need rebuilt. But there are other tests that can be done to determine that.

Start with a gauge

 

[Bigpuddie]

You may need to replace hydraulic filters

 

[Looking4new]

The hydraulic filters were replaced last spring.

 

[Fallon]

I haven't noticed any 'drift', but the bucket will not curl when I go into the pile.

It s good to know that the HST wont be affected by 'tinkering' with the pump.
I guess I will have to find a gauge.

Next question; where is the relief valve on it?

None of my tractors could curl the bucket if I took a good bite of a pile. Need to back up a bit, scoop from the top of the pile, or get better technique curling & lifting as you pushed into the pile.

Never start messing with the relief valve until you know what your hydraulic system is rated for & you can test it with a gauge first.

 

[IXLR8]

You need to start with a gauge to measure the pressure. I am on my second Kioti and on both of them my bucket after a while will not curl or lift like it would when new. On my CK30, the dealer said there was no issue. I pulled the lifting cylinders and found both of the "O" rings, which are actually square, had rolled and were leaking. I replaced the "O" rings and it worked better, but still not as good as new. On my DK40 I am having the same issues and a different dealer tells me all is fine, there are no issues. I did a pressure check with the FEL disconnected and the pressures were fine. I need to get a "T" fitting to check the pressure with the FEL connected. That will confirm if I have leaking cylinders or not. If I leave the bucket off the ground, in a few hours it will have settled to the ground. That tells me I either have leaking cylinders or control valve.

 

[Looking4new]

Update on my weak loader.
Now when the oil is cold it takes forever for the bucket to curl and I usually have to stop the curl and lift a bit and then curl some more. If left overnight the bucket will drift down as will the lift arms. I think it is the cylinders AND the control valve. Hopefully I can get the rest of the winter out of it and will get them rebuilt in the Spring. This machine is 12 years old.

 

[part-time-Farmer-NC]

I have a dk45se and have seen similar issues. The relief valve adjustment I believe is on the right side (when sitting in the tractor) under the step. I saw a video somewhere of someone adjusting it. There is also one in upper back left not too sure what that one does. I will look through my service manual tonight and see if I can find it and a description for it.

As someone mentioned earlier though. You, like me should do a pressure gauge on it to determine actual pressure before adjusting. Not sure how much pressure a hyd system can take but surely don't want to blow off lines else where for more oompf.

I like the idea of putting in a T fitting and put the gauge on that for the FEL. Makes sense. I haven't made one up yet though. A winter/spring project for sure.

 

[rScotty]

Update on my weak loader.
Now when the oil is cold it takes forever for the bucket to curl and I usually have to stop the curl and lift a bit and then curl some more. If left overnight the bucket will drift down as will the lift arms. I think it is the cylinders AND the control valve. Hopefully I can get the rest of the winter out of it and will get them rebuilt in the Spring. This machine is 12 years old.

Did you ever put a gauge in the hydraulic system to see what the pressure is? Several people have mentioned it. You need a gauge that measures in the 2000 to 3000 psi range. That is usually done with a 5000 psi gauge for safety. Amazon sells quick-attach gauge kits with all the needed adapters in the one to two hundred dollar range. They would work perfectly for this.

Or even simpler, just insert a "T" fitting holding a 5000 psi gauge in the hose line that goes from the hydraulic pump to the "IN" on the FEL control valve. Use a hydraulic "T" fitting to handle the pressure.

The problem may be any of several things - most are simple to fix. But without a gauge you don't know and the rest of us can't help. You have to have that gauge there to set the relief valve anyway.

rScotty

 

[Looking4new]

I've got the gauge and did check when it was first suggested. it was holding 2600 lbs. This is a newish development more or less. I will check the pressure again the next time I go out to it. The temperatures are not conducive to my working with bare hands right now. The warmest day we will see in the next week will be Christmas day. The dealers' mechanic also told me that there is a short rubber hose that is held on with two hose clamps at the top of the pump. I should check there, cause if the clamps are loose then the pump will suck air until the oil and hose warms up and seals again. I do need to rebuild both curl cylinders, they droop overnight. The lift cylinders are okay, I can still lift the front of the tractor off the ground with them. 24-2600 psi is what the gauge should read if the pump is okay. Under 2000 and the pump is toast. Kioti wants $135.oo each for the kits to rebuild all 4 cylinders and $1900.oo for the pump if that proves out to be done. Don't forget, these are Kanuckistan prices.

 

[rScotty]

I've got the gauge and did check when it was first suggested. it was holding 2600 lbs. This is a newish development more or less. I will check the pressure again the next time I go out to it. The temperatures are not conducive to my working with bare hands right now. The warmest day we will see in the next week will be Christmas day. The dealers' mechanic also told me that there is a short rubber hose that is held on with two hose clamps at the top of the pump. I should check there, cause if the clamps are loose then the pump will suck air until the oil and hose warms up and seals again. I do need to rebuild both curl cylinders, they droop overnight. The lift cylinders are okay, I can still lift the front of the tractor off the ground with them. 24-2600 psi is what the gauge should read if the pump is okay. Under 2000 and the pump is toast. Kioti wants $135.oo each for the kits to rebuild all 4 cylinders and $1900.oo for the pump if that proves out to be done. Don't forget, these are Kanuckistan prices.

If you saw 2600 psi on the gauge when you were working the FEL controls that is good. Don't worry about the hydraulic pump. It is fine. Same for the relief valve, too. If gauge pressure is nder 2000 psi doesn't mean the pump is toast, it just means that either the relief valve needs cleaning or the hydraulic pump is gettin old and cannot still make the same pressure as a new one. It will still work fine. My old JD is down to about 12/1500 psi. last I looked - and will still lift a one pallet of firewood or whatever. And hold it there.

Your dealer's mechanic has the right idea. He gave you good advice. But don't just put on new clamps, put on a whole new hose there. The problem that happens in tractors is hot hydraulic oil causes the hose rubber to split lengthwise on the inner diameter up by the clamps. You can maybe get a month by tightenig it up, but you cannot tighten it up enough because the splits will return. So the pump sucks air and that reduces the pressure of the hydraulic pump. In fact, sucking air will eventually kill a good pump. It also causes the hydraulic fluid to be foamy after running.

Hydraulic cylinders which droop by extending could be internal cylinder seals or a worn FEL control valve set. Hydraulic cylinders which get shorter as they droop cannot be internal cylinder seals, so the problem then has to be a worn FEL control valve - usually the spool valve clearances which are not serviceable. Sometimes it is a check valve with crud under the seat....but not all FEL control valves have check valves.

The hydraulic kits usually have about ten dollars worth of standard parts in a dealer package for 1000% markup. A general hydraulic shop will do them for less. That's where the dealer sends his.
enjoy,
rScotty

 

[Fallon]

Leakdown overnight is either a valve issue or blows gland seals. You can figure out if it's gland seals by hydraulic fluid coming out.

If you remove the piston seals & cap off lines, a cylinder will not leak down. The cylinder has a fixed volume & you can't shove more rod into that volume filled with hydraulic oil. It has to go somewhere. Either it's gonna leak out of a seal or hose & end up in a puddle somewhere. Or it's leaking past the valve internally.

If the cylinder is extending overnight, it could be sucking in air through a bad gland seal, which is a different story.

Kubota could never get a good enough valve for my 3 rear remotes to not leak down on my L4060 after 7 off different valves. Loader takes a couple weeks to leak down. Rear remotes lasted a few hours at best. Finally fixed it with piloted check valves on the tilt cylinders & living with it on the top cylinder. Didn't want to give up float on my top.

 

[Looking4new]

I went out to plow today and checked the hydraulic oil (cold) it was 1/4" below the full mark. Checked it again when I parked it and the oil (hot) was 1/2" above the full mark. The engine does lug down about 100-150 rpm when running at 2000 rpm and working the loader.
The warmest day I am going to have to work on it will be Sunday. 39°F.

 

[dfkrug]

Checked it again when I parked it and the oil (hot) was 1/2" above the full mark.

What does the oil look like? Any cloudiness due to air entrainment or water contamination? Do you have the same FEL symptoms with hot oil?

My guess is you are sucking air, as mentioned above, or have some water contamination. In the latter case, and with your Cold Temps, I can imagine some ice particles fouling your spool valve, its load-checks, or the RV.

Years ago, I did rebuild the implement pump on an '05 CK30, and it went well. That was a Cassappa pump, and Kioti went to Joyang pumps as a replacement. The seal kit was only offered for the Cassappa, not the Joyang.

 

[Looking4new]

The oil is clear. Both cold and hot. The solution to the pump rebuild is to replace it...$1900.oo + 13% tax + $200.oo to get the tractor floated to the shop + $90.oo/hr to replace it.
Unless it craps out totally this winter the job will get done in the spring along with all 4 cylinders getting rebuilt.

 

[dfkrug]

The oil is clear. Both cold and hot. The solution to the pump rebuild is to replace it...$1900.oo + 13% tax + $200.oo to get the tractor floated to the shop + $90.oo/hr to replace it.
Unless it craps out totally this winter the job will get done in the spring along with all 4 cylinders getting rebuilt.

Based on your pressure test, your pump is fine. For now.

Besides a suction hose leak, or water in the oil, there is another way to get air entrainment on these tractors. When going forward up a slope, the implement pump likes to suck air. That's due to an oil pickup near the front of the sump. Happens to me all the time, esp when the hyd oil gets a little low while I am using the loader.

The pump is rebuildable, and for a lot less than the $2000+ you are quoted.

 

[rScotty]

I went out to plow today and checked the hydraulic oil (cold) it was 1/4" below the full mark. Checked it again when I parked it and the oil (hot) was 1/2" above the full mark. The engine does lug down about 100-150 rpm when running at 2000 rpm and working the loader.
The warmest day I am going to have to work on it will be Sunday. 39°F.

That's not unusual. That's how it should be working. Fluid as well as the whole hydraulic system changes volume with temperature. That's why on models with sight glasses, the full hot and cold marks on the sight glass are several inches apart. That's somewhere between a quart to half a gallon of fluid in a 14 gallon system.

I just sort of split the difference until I'm satisfied that it is staying close to being between the marks....I'll cut it some slack for really hard hot work or cold of mid-winter. After that I just glance at the level if convenient. Probably not once a month. Without leaks, it stays the same level at the same temperature for years. Slopes don't affect the level enough to notice.