Kioti DK4210 FEL won't lift and curl or drop and dump at same time

[Phantese]

Hi,
I have the new model Kioti and am frustrated with the operation of the FEL, it will lift or drop fine (well it's slow) but I can't get it to curl or dump while lifting or dumping very well. These functions are at 10, 2, 5, and 7 oclock on the loader handle. BTW I had a Kubota B2610 and it worked like a charm but maybe it's because this is a larger tractor with more lifting ability but the dual function we all like when using the loader is awful on this one - the dealer says it's the way it is and adjustments to the speed or curl/dump can't be made. Any thoughts?

 

[rhunt]

Sounds like not enough RPM's. Bob

 

[art]

I didn't know all tractors came with the convenient to use valves that kubota uses. That is a premium feature that gets used daily but many manufacturers only use the cheaper valves that won't work four way. It is always better to find it going the other way!

 

[Ortimber]

While I have no experience with Kioti, I suspect what you are experiencing is normal operation. If you run a Kubota loader for any length of time, you will be disappointed with most other compact loader valves. John Deere CUTS/SCUTS have almost no “sweet spot” for getting two loader functions to operate simultaneously either.

 

[N2DFire]

The overall speed that the loader operates will vary with engine RPM (and thus Hydraulic pump output)

The sweet spots for getting 2 functions at once is very small and the farther you move the stick the smaller they get.

More expensive valves (like those on larger tractors, construction equipment, etc) use a piloted valve that allows a portion of the incoming flow to be directly routed downstream even when the valve is open/operating thus leaving flow for the next valve / function. Most SCUT/CUT hydraulic systems use a simple valve that dumps all the available fluid into the open/operating function. In order to have any leftover flow for the next valve you need (1) High RPM / high system flow and (2) a very light touch to only partially open the valve.

And FWIW - this get's magnified even more once you add a 3rd function valve for ..say a grapple. Can't open/close and curl/dump at the same time but you get used to it.

When we bought our CK35 - I was expecting construction grade performance but after running it a while either I have adjusted and don't notice it or don't really need 2 functions at once as much as I thought. Your needs may be different.

 

[RNeumann]

I learn something new everyday! Thx for posting. It makes sense that valves are better but I didn’t know why......

 

[oldnslo]

Kubota also used a series parallel style valve on some of their models of tractor. This style of valve takes the oil returning from the lift / lower circuit and directs it to the curl / dump circuit which makes performing both functions easier. Not sure if any other CUT manufacturer uses this style of valve.

 

[Sheldon Hamblin]

I don't understand that. I realize I have a much smaller machine, ck2610hst, but mine is super fast. It slows down a little in the 10-2-4-7 positions but is still much faster than my old Deere 850 2 stick loader.
I would call a different dealer to see if what your dealer is telling you is true.

 

[Phantese]

I don't understand that. I realize I have a much smaller machine, ck2610hst, but mine is super fast. It slows down a little in the 10-2-4-7 positions but is still much faster than my old Deere 850 2 stick loader.
I would call a different dealer to see if what your dealer is telling you is true.

Some tractors of the same model use different loaders I had a CK4010SE with KL4020 loader that was real slow, when I bought the tractor (cab model) I had them put on a KL4030 loader that was supper fast. Maybe twice as fast but the machine was the same, I can't imagine why anyone would want the KL 4020 on a Kioti cab when the Kl4030 is available. This being said, I now have a better understanding that the Loader valve on the CK's and the DK 10SS Series is an economy valve. Ortimber hit the nail right on the head - Kubota spoiled me, now who nows where I can find a loader valve thats similar to the one Kubota uses hmmm...

 

[Phantese]

The overall speed that the loader operates will vary with engine RPM (and thus Hydraulic pump output)

The sweet spots for getting 2 functions at once is very small and the farther you move the stick the smaller they get.

More expensive valves (like those on larger tractors, construction equipment, etc) use a piloted valve that allows a portion of the incoming flow to be directly routed downstream even when the valve is open/operating thus leaving flow for the next valve / function. Most SCUT/CUT hydraulic systems use a simple valve that dumps all the available fluid into the open/operating function. In order to have any leftover flow for the next valve you need (1) High RPM / high system flow and (2) a very light touch to only partially open the valve.

And FWIW - this get's magnified even more once you add a 3rd function valve for ..say a grapple. Can't open/close and curl/dump at the same time but you get used to it.

When we bought our CK35 - I was expecting construction grade performance but after running it a while either I have adjusted and don't notice it or don't really need 2 functions at once as much as I thought. Your needs may be different.

Excellent explanation, thanks

 

[K5lwq]

What is the advertised flow rate for the DK4210? Did the dealer measure the flow rate of your tractor to determine the pump is in spec?

I replaced my valve recently and I can operate two functions at the same time without much issue. If I have the RPM up and feather the valve I can get movement on all three functions albeit slow. I have a 10GPM pump.

 

[DK35vince]

Can't comment on the newer models, but my 2001 DK 35 (KL1450 loader) has always lift/curl, lift/dump, Etc. at the same time with no issue.
The loader control has always worked very smooth.

 

[Phantese]

My pump flowrate is 16GPM. Its a new model machine. I think it's an economy loader valve they use. Others have indicated Kubota uses a better brand of valve. Which I have used and is a dream to operate.

 

[Phantese]

Did you replace the valve with the same valve or a different one? Can I ask about the price difference?

 

[K5lwq]

If I am reading this correctly, your loader is around 9GPM. It would be interesting if they would check the flow rate to see if that is in fact what you are getting. I would think you could feather the joystick in 2 directions to get movement on both functions.

The valve I bought was a Walvoil 3 spool for third function. It was around $700. My little tractor is open station so mounting the valve was rather easy. Not sure what all would be involved in changing yours out.

 

[Phantese]

You are absolutely right about the loader flow it is 9 gallons per minute I have never had it tested but that's a good idea I appreciate your information on the type of valve you have thank you

 

[Eddie1955]

You are absolutely right about the loader flow it is 9 gallons per minute I have never had it tested but that's a good idea I appreciate your information on the type of valve you have thank you

Another thing to consider at least for the smaller tractors is if your total 9gpm is divided between implements and steering. I have noticed that in the specs of most smaller tractors the total gpm actually adds the 2 together making your flow rate to implements lower than advertised.

 

[ovrszd]

It's definitely your valve. Only fix is replacing the valve. Sorry.

 

[oldnslo]

You are absolutely right about the loader flow it is 9 gallons per minute I have never had it tested but that's a good idea I appreciate your information on the type of valve you have thank you

Phantese,
A rather simple check for flow rate IF you know the lift cylinder sizes is to time the cylinder travel.

With tractor at rated RPM measure actual cylinder stroke Vs time. Then use that information to figure flow.

Formula: Flow equals cylinder velocity times area.
I typically convert flow to cubic inches per second by multiplying flow in GPM by 3.85 (231/60) or in this case divide your answer by 3.85 to get GPM
cylinder velocity in inches per second
area in square inches.

 

[Phantese]

It's definitely your valve. Only fix is replacing the valve. Sorry.

I am sure you are correct. Sadly....