Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure

[paulfun9]

After reading your post closer I would trade that POS Kioti and buy John Deere or Kubota tractors as they are problem free.I hear they offer a warranty well beyond what one would expect.

Not in my experience!

 

[coobie]

Not in my experience!

Not mine also.LOL.Sorry to say we live in a society where we have to CODDLE everyone.I guess it makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy..God forbid if your state your true thoughts because folks will chastise the H-LL out of you. Just trying to do my part to help the OP..My big boys pants are on on Chastise away..I wish we had a like button here like Facebook does.

 

[Industrial Toys]

JD can build some mighty fine junk! Maybe other companies that only copy and don't have those stupid Engineers are farther ahead! At the end of the day, I would much rather have a good quality copy of something that works as opposed to some brand new newfangled POS that was designed by an imbicile.

 

[Fuggley]

hummm... the OP says the problem was caused by two valve seats coming free. Sounds strange that two of them would do that at the same time? I’d look close at the head for a crack as the cause. Anyway.... sorry you blew up the engine.

 

[Coyote machine]

hummm... the OP says the problem was caused by two valve seats coming free. Sounds strange that two of them would do that at the same time? I’d look close at the head for a crack as the cause. Anyway.... sorry you blew up the engine.

Let's not forget the OP said, either in this thread or his one other thread to date, (which, BTW is a closed but still readable thread), that the freeze plug block heater blew out onto the ground, and that is the piece of metal seen in his pics he shared initially. That leads me to speculate that the engine's valve seats came loose after enough coolant had leaked out from an improper installation of the block heater, the engine having overheated as a result of lack of coolant; THEN the valve(s) seats failed once the head warped. If not exactly that order, something very similar.
Engine's ALWAYS fail for a reason, the OP won't share or doesn't know what the reason is, or just prefers to be a 'brand detractor', HIS words, stated early on in the other thread.

About the truest words yet about this tractor and it's owner's situation: "Anyway.... sorry you blew up the engine." From quote above, color added for highlighting.

And let's not forget, the OP 'says' that Kioti Corp turned him down on any past warranty compensation.
Yet he never said a word about why!?

IF the OP had a arguable case I'd like to hear details from Kioti's Corp people, AND the OP's detailed rebuttal/plea to them.

Crickets I'm sure, from the OP going forward......

Invitation sent numerous times - no shares so far in way too many pages of wanting to help crack this 'case'. So far 19 pages, 185 posts.

With nothing else to go on I conclude OP error, NOT fault of Kioti Corp or their parent company, Daedong, S. Korea.

BTW, for those who missed Coobie's mildly subtle hint about going to Deere or other manufacturers, I believe his intent is that one will NOT find them throwing 'free' engines around just because one has low hours and something breaks off/past warranty. Just like Kioti, remote possibility on a case by case example, IF it seems like a mfg. defect, not a blown out block heater causing engine failure, for instance.
And to the recent poster who asked if the OP would mind sharing repair costs - I wish you luck in digging out any kind of response from the OP on anything related to his blown motor.

 

[coobie]

Let's not forget the OP said, either in this thread or his one other thread to date, (which, BTW is a closed but still readable thread), that the freeze plug block heater blew out onto the ground, and that is the piece of metal seen in his pics he shared initially. That leads me to speculate that the engine's valve seats came loose after enough coolant had leaked out from an improper installation of the block heater, the engine having overheated as a result of lack of coolant; THEN the valve(s) seats failed once the head warped. If not exactly that order, something very similar.
Engine's ALWAYS fail for a reason, the OP won't share or doesn't know what the reason is, or just prefers to be a 'brand detractor', HIS words, stated early on in the other thread.

About the truest words yet about this tractor and it's owner's situation: "Anyway.... sorry you blew up the engine." From quote above, color added for highlighting.

And let's not forget, the OP 'says' that Kioti Corp turned him down on any past warranty compensation.
Yet he never said a word about why!?

IF the OP had a arguable case I'd like to hear details from Kioti's Corp people, AND the OP's detailed rebuttal/plea to them.

Crickets I'm sure, from the OP going forward......

Invitation sent numerous times - no shares so far in way too many pages of wanting to help crack this 'case'. So far 19 pages, 185 posts.

With nothing else to go on I conclude OP error, NOT fault of Kioti Corp or their parent company, Daedong, S. Korea.

BTW, for those who missed Coobie's mildly subtle hint about going to Deere or other manufacturers, I believe his intent is that one will NOT find them throwing 'free' engines around just because one has low hours and something breaks off/past warranty. Just like Kioti, remote possibility on a case by case example, IF it seems like a mfg. defect, not a blown out block heater causing engine failure, for instance.
And to the recent poster who asked if the OP would mind sharing repair costs - I wish you luck in digging out any kind of response from the OP on anything related to his blown motor.

Yes sir you got the hint..

 

[Trillium Farm]

Let's not forget the OP said, either in this thread or his one other thread to date, (which, BTW is a closed but still readable thread), that the freeze plug block heater blew out onto the ground, and that is the piece of metal seen in his pics he shared initially. That leads me to speculate that the engine's valve seats came loose after enough coolant had leaked out from an improper installation of the block heater, the engine having overheated as a result of lack of coolant; THEN the valve(s) seats failed once the head warped. If not exactly that order, something very similar.
Engine's ALWAYS fail for a reason, the OP won't share or doesn't know what the reason is, or just prefers to be a 'brand detractor', HIS words, stated early on in the other thread.

About the truest words yet about this tractor and it's owner's situation: "Anyway.... sorry you blew up the engine." From quote above, color added for highlighting.

And let's not forget, the OP 'says' that Kioti Corp turned him down on any past warranty compensation.
Yet he never said a word about why!?

IF the OP had a arguable case I'd like to hear details from Kioti's Corp people, AND the OP's detailed rebuttal/plea to them.

Crickets I'm sure, from the OP going forward......

Invitation sent numerous times - no shares so far in way too many pages of wanting to help crack this 'case'. So far 19 pages, 185 posts.

With nothing else to go on I conclude OP error, NOT fault of Kioti Corp or their parent company, Daedong, S. Korea.

BTW, for those who missed Coobie's mildly subtle hint about going to Deere or other manufacturers, I believe his intent is that one will NOT find them throwing 'free' engines around just because one has low hours and something breaks off/past warranty. Just like Kioti, remote possibility on a case by case example, IF it seems like a mfg. defect, not a blown out block heater causing engine failure, for instance.
And to the recent poster who asked if the OP would mind sharing repair costs - I wish you luck in digging out any kind of response from the OP on anything related to his blown motor.

Very eloquently said and my feelings exactly! In his mind it was Kioti's fault and not his because of the low hours no matter what the abuse, wrong operation etc. The whole thing didn't make sense from any business point of view.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I figure the guy paid his dues when he bought and paid for the tractor. After that, he is entitled to what ever opinion he wants to share here, whether the Kool-Aid drinking cry babies like it or not... lol

It's absolutely ludicrous to think it just couldn't happen to "your brand"!!

He feels the way he feels, and if he doesn't want to share more, I'm fine with that. Just like I can believe him or not, that's MY privilege...

I feel bad for him either way, I know I'd not be too happy if it was MY tractor, that took a dump with so few hours on it! I'd probably be here crying more than he did! lol

SR

 

[sd455dan]

Op said two valve seats or press in guides dropped out possible if they are press fit inserts and were undersized.?

To blow the temp sender out and (apparently in 2 pieces) imo catastrophic failure such as the connecting rod breaking and attempting to exit the block would do it...

Without close up pictures This Is All Guessing of Course.

I do remember the thread on a 400 hour Kioti where the piston had a defect and shattered the skirt ,

Luckily the block was not destroyed- because the connecting rod was still intact and connected to enough of remains of the piston (that did not rock excessively)....

If it had, or the piston failed in a slightly different way- I could see the reported failure in this thread as a possible outcome.


https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...g/342127-ck35-hst-shattered-piston-400-a.html

Now imagine a scenario where a similar piston breaks but this time lets some of the crown break loose to ride on top of what is left of the piston top - OR piston crown rotates on the pin that is still connected to the rod...

since the OP said the head cracked it would seem possible that the above thread could conceivably lead to the failure OP posted
IF the piston failed in such a way as to lose a piece or impact between intake and exhaust valves/seats and or guide damage

The aluminum piece compresses until something gives...
head cracks between seats releasing the press in inserts
on next stroke their is even less space since the seats are now broken loose
And in the way because on the exhaust stroke the seat is no longer aligned when the cam opened the valve so the valve is stuck open because the seat is hung up on the edge of the seat cut out or the guide is distorted valve stem bent and holding the valve open
either way it is now hung open

part of the piston Top is still connected to the rod trying to compress what is now stacked up parts of seats/valve head/ broken piston top.
So this time the Rod decides to break... about 1/2 the way to the piston pin or it snapped on the 1st Big hit

and on the next stroke coming back up catches the cast iron lip surrounding the cylinder bore of the block casting being flung out by centrifugal force.
this time breaking through the cylinder wall and ejecting the block heater in the process .

It is pretty much all over at this point - rod broken, piston shattered, block destroyed, head cracked and seat inserts no longer in the head and mangled along with a couple valve faces ... But in this case root cause being a faulty piston casting

Pictures of the carnage would have cleared up a lot of questions I think.

The above scenario - (All completely wrong if the piston and rod is still intact)

Sorry not trying to stir the pot just thinking about plausible ways this failure could have happened that did not include the owner doing anything wrong.

I also can't help but think of the recent thread of a Kubota? with low hours that appeared to have eaten a staple and all the piston/ head damage it caused , that was no fault of the buyer.

to the OP glad to hear it is repaired but bummer it was such a catastrophic and expensive repair.

 

[Trillium Farm]

There can be all kinds of possibilities for the failure, but I don't think that Kioti is out to get a customer. The OP had bought several tractors (Kiotis?) from this dealer and therefore was a valuable customer, and Kioti is not a fly-by-night operator, one would think that it would be in their interest to investigate & correct the failure if their fault so as not to repeat it in future units, any business would do the same. Kioti investigated and rejected the claim as they deemed it to be operator's fault. What I find hard to understand is the dealer. Why hasn't the dealer advocated better for the its customer? Why hasn't the dealer come to a compromise whereby they'd wave/reduce the labour after all this customer bought several units from him. The only thing I can infer from all this is that even the dealer probably thought it was operator's error and wasn't willing to stick his neck out more than so far. Alas we will never know the reason, the OP never gave us any real info nor facts so that we could be of help only his thoughts & opinion. He went into a rant and wanted others to side with him. Empathy was with him facts were not.

 

[ruffdog]

The OP's engine dropped 2 valve seats....it got me thinking. I seem to remember a problem with a engine maker long ago that would drop valve seats (service bulletin). If you work a engine and then shut it off, many times the temp gage will go up a bit before it cools off. During that hot time, if you start the engine, cold intake air rushes past the intake valve seats and shrinks them and they fall out. It would be nice to know if the 2 seats were both on the intake side. Maybe this engine just didn't have enough press fit between the seat and head and in the right conditions dropped the seats.

 

[sd455dan]

The OP's engine dropped 2 valve seats....it got me thinking. I seem to remember a problem with a engine maker long ago that would drop valve seats (service bulletin). If you work a engine and then shut it off, many times the temp gage will go up a bit before it cools off. During that hot time, if you start the engine, cold intake air rushes past the intake valve seats and shrinks them and they fall out. It would be nice to know if the 2 seats were both on the intake side. Maybe this engine just didn't have enough press fit between the seat and head and in the right conditions dropped the seats.

Yeah I have heard of that to- and some head service shops insisting on using stud and bearing mount on the inserts (or something similar) as a extra safety factor to minimize the likelihood.

If it was 2 cylinders involved and both were intake seats.

Mmm well that would be....

From the description given I am not even clear as to whether these were loose seats or press in valve guides ( sleeves) that moved.
Post 1 said sleeves "The dealer believes 2 sleeves in the valve train came out trashing the motor." later in the thread I thought I read seats?

The failure in the linked thread

Kioti was very interested in checking out exactly what happened.

Once again, Some pictures of what remained of the engine parts might enlighten all of us.

 

[finn1]

When the engine is running, and the coolant level is correct, the water pump forces coolant into the cylinder head and all is fine.

When the coolant level is low, the water pump still forces coolant into the head (the thermostat is the main system restriction in most cases), and the coolant temperature may be fine, but as soon as the engine is shut down, the coolant runs to the bottom of the radiator and lower part of the engine crankcase.

If the coolant level is low enough, the bottom deck of the head no longer is covered with coolant, and the metal temperatures in the valve bridge and seat insert skyrocket.

The high temperatures in instances of hot shutdowns with low coolant levels cause massive thermal induced hoop stress on the valve seat insert. The hoop stresses can cause the insert to fail in compressive yield.

Essentially, the lack of coolant on shutdown causes the insert to shrink because of the thermal stress. When this happens, the press fit of the insert to the head base metal is lost, and the insert drops, usually on startup.

I don’t profess to know what material Kioti uses for their inserts, but there are different materials available with different cost / performance trade offs.

I went through this failure mode some thirty years ago when working on a similar valve drop issue for the Diesel engine manufacturer I worked for.

The issue never was on the radar screen until we had a rash of valve drops. There was a radiator quality issue at the same time.

We fought the valve drops for months, but couldn’t duplicate it in the lab until we devised a dyno test where we filled the coolant just shy of the deck, ran the engine till at normal operating temp, then did a hot shutdown. Bingo. The failure was immediate and 100% repeatable.

Running 100% antifreeze can probably lead to a similar failure. The silicates in some automotive grade antifreeze can drop out in the hot valve bridge drilled passage. If that bridge coolant passage then plugs with the silicate, and I have seen it happen when the assembly plant forgot to add water to the concentrated bulk antifreeze delivery, the bridge and valve seat temperature will increase, cracking the bridge, and possibly overheating the seat, resulting in a seat drop.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Kind of brings a new meaning to China Syndrome!

NICE, when someone can share knowledge like that.

 

[woolyAcres]

Kioti investigated and rejected the claim as they deemed it to be operator's fault.

@Trillium Farm- do you remember where/or can you point to where the OP said this? I thought he simply said they rejected his claim. Since he was out of warranty, as many here have said ad nauseam, Kioti has no obligation to even investigate. Where are you getting this info that they reviewed anything specific?

 

[woolyAcres]

@finn1- great post! Thanks for the education.:thumbsup:

 

[ritcheyvs]

Interesting thoughts from finn1. Maybe there was trapped air in the cooling system after that block heater was installed?

I have had Diesel engines that tended to keep trap air in the cooling system when refilling coolant after maintenance or a coolant change. Typically, now, I remove the top radiator hose at the radiator (i.e., hose still connected to engine) and refill the coolant into that hose until it comes out at the radiator. This greatly reduces trapped air in the block and head. in my experience.

Automotive water pumps produce very little head pressure and will not push coolant "up hill" to overcome air blocks in the coolant passages.

 

[Trillium Farm]

@Trillium Farm- do you remember where/or can you point to where the OP said this? I thought he simply said they rejected his claim. Since he was out of warranty, as many here have said ad nauseam, Kioti has no obligation to even investigate. Where are you getting this info that they reviewed anything specific?

Gosh so many posts have gone by! But in the beginning he said that the dealer went to Kioti which sent a field rep to investigate and it was upon this investigation, where the rep & the dealer were present, but not the OP I guess, that the claim was rejected. I can only see one reason for the rejection and that is that it was not a manufacturing flaw. I've said this before, though not knowing the whole story, that the dealer could have done a lot more than he did for him, the dealer represents a lot of business for Kioti and I'm sure that they could have come up with a suitable compromise. The OP is defending the dealer saying that he did all he could, but I've been in business a long time and I know that customer acquisition is the highest expense a manufacturer can have and therefor even bending backwards is better than losing a customer plus all the bad publicity and the renewed expense of acquiring another customer in his place. There are so many things that don't sound right, I think we've been given only part of the story, so we are left to conjecture.

 

[Coyote machine]

I figure the guy paid his dues when he bought and paid for the tractor. After that, he is entitled to what ever opinion he wants to share here, whether the Kool-Aid drinking cry babies like it or not... lol

It's absolutely ludicrous to think it just couldn't happen to "your brand"!!

He feels the way he feels, and if he doesn't want to share more, I'm fine with that. Just like I can believe him or not, that's MY privilege...

I feel bad for him either way, I know I'd not be too happy if it was MY tractor, that took a dump with so few hours on it! I'd probably be here crying more than he did! lol

SR

There's no joke here, and no one is drinking any Kool-Aid, except maybe you.
Yes, anyone can share an opinion here, even if it's wrong. In the case of this OP he chose to limit details and brand bash because he wants what he wants and thinks that because of low hours AND off warranty someone other than him should pay for his blown engine. That is completely off base and wrongheaded. IF he had a viable case with Kioti they would have already taken care of the situation. I know this for a fact. I've worked closely with some OPs in other cases where an engine was blown. Each case is different and this OP stated he was turned down. Kioti wouldn't just turn a customer away for no reason.

Where is it stated that it couldn't happen to XYZ brand? Show us something to backup your absolutely ludicrous statement!!

What is additionally wrong is the OP's and seemingly your thinking that an OP can come on TBN and say he's going to be a 'brand detractor' because the brand won't give him exactly what he wants. It's NOT OK and is blatantly adverse to the rules of TBN. To paraphrase the 'contract with TBN' that all of us consented to when we signed onto the site; is that none of us can brand/manufacturer bash here for numerous reasons. Read it over- for next time you want to call people out about something that you are totally wrong about.

BTW, LOL:confused3:

 

[Coyote machine]

When the engine is running, and the coolant level is correct, the water pump forces coolant into the cylinder head and all is fine.

When the coolant level is low, the water pump still forces coolant into the head (the thermostat is the main system restriction in most cases), and the coolant temperature may be fine, but as soon as the engine is shut down, the coolant runs to the bottom of the radiator and lower part of the engine crankcase.

If the coolant level is low enough, the bottom deck of the head no longer is covered with coolant, and the metal temperatures in the valve bridge and seat insert skyrocket.

The high temperatures in instances of hot shutdowns with low coolant levels cause massive thermal induced hoop stress on the valve seat insert. The hoop stresses can cause the insert to fail in compressive yield.

Essentially, the lack of coolant on shutdown causes the insert to shrink because of the thermal stress. When this happens, the press fit of the insert to the head base metal is lost, and the insert drops, usually on startup.

I don’t profess to know what material Kioti uses for their inserts, but there are different materials available with different cost / performance trade offs.

I went through this failure mode some thirty years ago when working on a similar valve drop issue for the Diesel engine manufacturer I worked for.

The issue never was on the radar screen until we had a rash of valve drops. There was a radiator quality issue at the same time.

We fought the valve drops for months, but couldn’t duplicate it in the lab until we devised a dyno test where we filled the coolant just shy of the deck, ran the engine till at normal operating temp, then did a hot shutdown. Bingo. The failure was immediate and 100% repeatable.

Running 100% antifreeze can probably lead to a similar failure. The silicates in some automotive grade antifreeze can drop out in the hot valve bridge drilled passage. If that bridge coolant passage then plugs with the silicate, and I have seen it happen when the assembly plant forgot to add water to the concentrated bulk antifreeze delivery, the bridge and valve seat temperature will increase, cracking the bridge, and possibly overheating the seat, resulting in a seat drop.

Sounds like a Mercedes diesel to me. I've seen a number of similar issues with their diesels in the 80's when content laws to keep America competitive with European and Asian manufactures dictated that a certain percentage of parts of a foreign manufacturer's auto HAD to be made in the U.S.

The first time, I had a Benz diesel overheat and it was loosing coolant. We could find NO active leaks, AND we spent hours trying to figure out why.
I finally found it was due to the rubber gasket between the radiator top /header, and the aluminum core! When the T-stat would open and the engine was at temp it would leak past the rubber O-ring type seal AND blow water past the seal over the engine. (We did not use coolant to test for leakage, because until we found the cause no sense to waste more money throwing away coolant. The radiator was NOT sealable and could NOT be repaired for any amount of money. BOTH headers were PLASTIC 'crimped' to the core. Man, what an abomination.
We got a brand new metal headers radiator and sent the very happy customer down the road. Every other shop for miles had tried to figure it out too. Guess I'm just persistent and lucky!:mur:

Second case was again something cooling system related on a turbo diesel Benz. This time it was failure to cool the cabin. After long struggle it turned AGAIN the crap part usages by Benz. The climate control box under the hood was subcontracted to Chrysler, (you know, bankrupt, then bailed at taxpayer's expense- who can figure out why?!)
Part was at least close to 3-400 dollars from the Benz dealers, IIRC. It would crack at the bottom section, which of course was some different material than the 'brain' section above, then the climate controls and it's massive number of hoses would loose vacuum and the whole climate control was rendered non-functional! Yippee. We ended up keeping one of the pricy units on the self. They were a sure sell part when we'd see big diesel Benzes roaring into our drive wanting instant cool between rounds of golf!:confused3:

Working on diesels I learned a lot about what they can and cannot tolerate. Extreme cold they essentially never get to 'normal' temp on the temp gauge. Extreme heat from a poorly installed block heater and loss of coolant, (as stated by me and numerous others here), will cause rapid failure, especially as Finn1 stated earlier.

Add one more factor to the equation: when too little coolant is being circulated through the cooling passages of the head it not only jumps to litteral 'warp' temp, it does so because an aluminum head on a cast iron block expands and contracts 5 times faster than steel. This means even if a head had a chance of surviving a blown out block heater from increased internal pressure built in the cooling passages, the engine HAS to dissipate the extreme overheat at the head, and something has to give since there is not enough coolant to blow off to the reservoir tank, as the system is designed to do under normal circumstances.

I strongly suspect the dealer and Kioti rep took one look at the engine and concluded the same thing I have. Owner installed block heater caused leaked coolant to point of no return. Block heater, weakest link; gave way when pressure built throughout engine resulting in cracked head, lost valve seats and blown out cause of the 'crime' failure of block heater - spit it on ground as evidence of bad install. Crime solved, case closed, next!
OH, and Kioti rightfully walked away... Seek recompense from block heater installer, NOT Kioti.
Sorry for long post but it's sometimes really difficult to get people to see reality, especially when most of the relevant facts are held back by the OP. English version- such is life!