Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure

   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #191  
The OP's engine dropped 2 valve seats....it got me thinking. I seem to remember a problem with a engine maker long ago that would drop valve seats (service bulletin). If you work a engine and then shut it off, many times the temp gage will go up a bit before it cools off. During that hot time, if you start the engine, cold intake air rushes past the intake valve seats and shrinks them and they fall out. It would be nice to know if the 2 seats were both on the intake side. Maybe this engine just didn't have enough press fit between the seat and head and in the right conditions dropped the seats.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #192  
The OP's engine dropped 2 valve seats....it got me thinking. I seem to remember a problem with a engine maker long ago that would drop valve seats (service bulletin). If you work a engine and then shut it off, many times the temp gage will go up a bit before it cools off. During that hot time, if you start the engine, cold intake air rushes past the intake valve seats and shrinks them and they fall out. It would be nice to know if the 2 seats were both on the intake side. Maybe this engine just didn't have enough press fit between the seat and head and in the right conditions dropped the seats.



Yeah I have heard of that to- and some head service shops insisting on using stud and bearing mount on the inserts (or something similar) as a extra safety factor to minimize the likelihood.

If it was 2 cylinders involved and both were intake seats.

Mmm well that would be....

From the description given I am not even clear as to whether these were loose seats or press in valve guides ( sleeves) that moved.
Post 1 said sleeves "The dealer believes 2 sleeves in the valve train came out trashing the motor." later in the thread I thought I read seats?

The failure in the linked thread

Kioti was very interested in checking out exactly what happened.

Once again, Some pictures of what remained of the engine parts might enlighten all of us.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #193  
When the engine is running, and the coolant level is correct, the water pump forces coolant into the cylinder head and all is fine.

When the coolant level is low, the water pump still forces coolant into the head (the thermostat is the main system restriction in most cases), and the coolant temperature may be fine, but as soon as the engine is shut down, the coolant runs to the bottom of the radiator and lower part of the engine crankcase.

If the coolant level is low enough, the bottom deck of the head no longer is covered with coolant, and the metal temperatures in the valve bridge and seat insert skyrocket.

The high temperatures in instances of hot shutdowns with low coolant levels cause massive thermal induced hoop stress on the valve seat insert. The hoop stresses can cause the insert to fail in compressive yield.

Essentially, the lack of coolant on shutdown causes the insert to shrink because of the thermal stress. When this happens, the press fit of the insert to the head base metal is lost, and the insert drops, usually on startup.

I don’t profess to know what material Kioti uses for their inserts, but there are different materials available with different cost / performance trade offs.

I went through this failure mode some thirty years ago when working on a similar valve drop issue for the Diesel engine manufacturer I worked for.

The issue never was on the radar screen until we had a rash of valve drops. There was a radiator quality issue at the same time.

We fought the valve drops for months, but couldn’t duplicate it in the lab until we devised a dyno test where we filled the coolant just shy of the deck, ran the engine till at normal operating temp, then did a hot shutdown. Bingo. The failure was immediate and 100% repeatable.

Running 100% antifreeze can probably lead to a similar failure. The silicates in some automotive grade antifreeze can drop out in the hot valve bridge drilled passage. If that bridge coolant passage then plugs with the silicate, and I have seen it happen when the assembly plant forgot to add water to the concentrated bulk antifreeze delivery, the bridge and valve seat temperature will increase, cracking the bridge, and possibly overheating the seat, resulting in a seat drop.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #194  
Kind of brings a new meaning to China Syndrome!

NICE, when someone can share knowledge like that.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #195  
Kioti investigated and rejected the claim as they deemed it to be operator's fault.
@Trillium Farm- do you remember where/or can you point to where the OP said this? I thought he simply said they rejected his claim. Since he was out of warranty, as many here have said ad nauseam, Kioti has no obligation to even investigate. Where are you getting this info that they reviewed anything specific?
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #196  
@finn1- great post! Thanks for the education.:thumbsup:
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #197  
Interesting thoughts from finn1. Maybe there was trapped air in the cooling system after that block heater was installed?

I have had Diesel engines that tended to keep trap air in the cooling system when refilling coolant after maintenance or a coolant change. Typically, now, I remove the top radiator hose at the radiator (i.e., hose still connected to engine) and refill the coolant into that hose until it comes out at the radiator. This greatly reduces trapped air in the block and head. in my experience.

Automotive water pumps produce very little head pressure and will not push coolant "up hill" to overcome air blocks in the coolant passages.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #198  
@Trillium Farm- do you remember where/or can you point to where the OP said this? I thought he simply said they rejected his claim. Since he was out of warranty, as many here have said ad nauseam, Kioti has no obligation to even investigate. Where are you getting this info that they reviewed anything specific?

Gosh so many posts have gone by! But in the beginning he said that the dealer went to Kioti which sent a field rep to investigate and it was upon this investigation, where the rep & the dealer were present, but not the OP I guess, that the claim was rejected. I can only see one reason for the rejection and that is that it was not a manufacturing flaw. I've said this before, though not knowing the whole story, that the dealer could have done a lot more than he did for him, the dealer represents a lot of business for Kioti and I'm sure that they could have come up with a suitable compromise. The OP is defending the dealer saying that he did all he could, but I've been in business a long time and I know that customer acquisition is the highest expense a manufacturer can have and therefor even bending backwards is better than losing a customer plus all the bad publicity and the renewed expense of acquiring another customer in his place. There are so many things that don't sound right, I think we've been given only part of the story, so we are left to conjecture.
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #199  
I figure the guy paid his dues when he bought and paid for the tractor. After that, he is entitled to what ever opinion he wants to share here, whether the Kool-Aid drinking cry babies like it or not... lol

It's absolutely ludicrous to think it just couldn't happen to "your brand"!!

He feels the way he feels, and if he doesn't want to share more, I'm fine with that. Just like I can believe him or not, that's MY privilege...

I feel bad for him either way, I know I'd not be too happy if it was MY tractor, that took a dump with so few hours on it! I'd probably be here crying more than he did! lol

SR

There's no joke here, and no one is drinking any Kool-Aid, except maybe you.
Yes, anyone can share an opinion here, even if it's wrong. In the case of this OP he chose to limit details and brand bash because he wants what he wants and thinks that because of low hours AND off warranty someone other than him should pay for his blown engine. That is completely off base and wrongheaded. IF he had a viable case with Kioti they would have already taken care of the situation. I know this for a fact. I've worked closely with some OPs in other cases where an engine was blown. Each case is different and this OP stated he was turned down. Kioti wouldn't just turn a customer away for no reason.

Where is it stated that it couldn't happen to XYZ brand? Show us something to backup your absolutely ludicrous statement!!

What is additionally wrong is the OP's and seemingly your thinking that an OP can come on TBN and say he's going to be a 'brand detractor' because the brand won't give him exactly what he wants. It's NOT OK and is blatantly adverse to the rules of TBN. To paraphrase the 'contract with TBN' that all of us consented to when we signed onto the site; is that none of us can brand/manufacturer bash here for numerous reasons. Read it over- for next time you want to call people out about something that you are totally wrong about.

BTW, LOL:confused3:
 
   / Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure #200  
When the engine is running, and the coolant level is correct, the water pump forces coolant into the cylinder head and all is fine.

When the coolant level is low, the water pump still forces coolant into the head (the thermostat is the main system restriction in most cases), and the coolant temperature may be fine, but as soon as the engine is shut down, the coolant runs to the bottom of the radiator and lower part of the engine crankcase.

If the coolant level is low enough, the bottom deck of the head no longer is covered with coolant, and the metal temperatures in the valve bridge and seat insert skyrocket.

The high temperatures in instances of hot shutdowns with low coolant levels cause massive thermal induced hoop stress on the valve seat insert. The hoop stresses can cause the insert to fail in compressive yield.

Essentially, the lack of coolant on shutdown causes the insert to shrink because of the thermal stress. When this happens, the press fit of the insert to the head base metal is lost, and the insert drops, usually on startup.

I don’t profess to know what material Kioti uses for their inserts, but there are different materials available with different cost / performance trade offs.

I went through this failure mode some thirty years ago when working on a similar valve drop issue for the Diesel engine manufacturer I worked for.

The issue never was on the radar screen until we had a rash of valve drops. There was a radiator quality issue at the same time.

We fought the valve drops for months, but couldn’t duplicate it in the lab until we devised a dyno test where we filled the coolant just shy of the deck, ran the engine till at normal operating temp, then did a hot shutdown. Bingo. The failure was immediate and 100% repeatable.

Running 100% antifreeze can probably lead to a similar failure. The silicates in some automotive grade antifreeze can drop out in the hot valve bridge drilled passage. If that bridge coolant passage then plugs with the silicate, and I have seen it happen when the assembly plant forgot to add water to the concentrated bulk antifreeze delivery, the bridge and valve seat temperature will increase, cracking the bridge, and possibly overheating the seat, resulting in a seat drop.

Sounds like a Mercedes diesel to me. I've seen a number of similar issues with their diesels in the 80's when content laws to keep America competitive with European and Asian manufactures dictated that a certain percentage of parts of a foreign manufacturer's auto HAD to be made in the U.S.

The first time, I had a Benz diesel overheat and it was loosing coolant. We could find NO active leaks, AND we spent hours trying to figure out why.
I finally found it was due to the rubber gasket between the radiator top /header, and the aluminum core! When the T-stat would open and the engine was at temp it would leak past the rubber O-ring type seal AND blow water past the seal over the engine. (We did not use coolant to test for leakage, because until we found the cause no sense to waste more money throwing away coolant. The radiator was NOT sealable and could NOT be repaired for any amount of money. BOTH headers were PLASTIC 'crimped' to the core. Man, what an abomination.
We got a brand new metal headers radiator and sent the very happy customer down the road. Every other shop for miles had tried to figure it out too. Guess I'm just persistent and lucky!:mur:

Second case was again something cooling system related on a turbo diesel Benz. This time it was failure to cool the cabin. After long struggle it turned AGAIN the crap part usages by Benz. The climate control box under the hood was subcontracted to Chrysler, (you know, bankrupt, then bailed at taxpayer's expense- who can figure out why?!)
Part was at least close to 3-400 dollars from the Benz dealers, IIRC. It would crack at the bottom section, which of course was some different material than the 'brain' section above, then the climate controls and it's massive number of hoses would loose vacuum and the whole climate control was rendered non-functional! Yippee. We ended up keeping one of the pricy units on the self. They were a sure sell part when we'd see big diesel Benzes roaring into our drive wanting instant cool between rounds of golf!:confused3:

Working on diesels I learned a lot about what they can and cannot tolerate. Extreme cold they essentially never get to 'normal' temp on the temp gauge. Extreme heat from a poorly installed block heater and loss of coolant, (as stated by me and numerous others here), will cause rapid failure, especially as Finn1 stated earlier.

Add one more factor to the equation: when too little coolant is being circulated through the cooling passages of the head it not only jumps to litteral 'warp' temp, it does so because an aluminum head on a cast iron block expands and contracts 5 times faster than steel. This means even if a head had a chance of surviving a blown out block heater from increased internal pressure built in the cooling passages, the engine HAS to dissipate the extreme overheat at the head, and something has to give since there is not enough coolant to blow off to the reservoir tank, as the system is designed to do under normal circumstances.

I strongly suspect the dealer and Kioti rep took one look at the engine and concluded the same thing I have. Owner installed block heater caused leaked coolant to point of no return. Block heater, weakest link; gave way when pressure built throughout engine resulting in cracked head, lost valve seats and blown out cause of the 'crime' failure of block heater - spit it on ground as evidence of bad install. Crime solved, case closed, next!
OH, and Kioti rightfully walked away... Seek recompense from block heater installer, NOT Kioti.
Sorry for long post but it's sometimes really difficult to get people to see reality, especially when most of the relevant facts are held back by the OP. English version- such is life!
 

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