Sump Pump, GFCI - Would you?

[BertZegers]

It certainly doesn't help that Europe has 220 Volts. I'm guessing they don't have a center tapped transformer and 440V though.

In most countries in Europe they use a 400 Volt 3 phase system (3 Lines, Neutral and Ground) for every building / home. If 3 phase is not needed than 1 Line and Neutral gives 230 Volt.
The transformers service a subdivision or industrial area. Big users like hospitals have their own transformer. The transformers are fed with 10.000 Volt 3 phase in a closed loop ( if a fault occurs the utility cuts out the faulty cable and feeds through the open loop till the problem is fixed ) transformers step down to 400 volt 3 phase which is distributed throughout subdivisions, industrial area, shopping center and so on. The service cable has 5 conductors 3 Line, Neutral and Ground.
230 Volt is more dangerous than 110 Volt, but the amps are way lower, which reduces fire risk. A typical home in Holland has one main fuse of 35 Amps, and that is plenty.
The panels have 8 to 12 circuits. Most groups of 4 circuits are protected with one GFI (30 mA)
Appliances in Holland are usually smaller, are 230 volts and every home is heated with natural gas. The code in Europe is more stringent than in North America, and in my professional opinion, the electric system in Europe is simple, reliable, save, and cheaper. There is only one system, the same system for 230 Volt and for 3 phase 400 volt! And if possible the cables are in- ground.
Unfortunate, the way the system is designed in North America makes it impossible to improve to reach the European standard.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Very interesting. I thought the fire risk would be greater as a greater arc can be drawn in a bad connection.

My stepdad was a German Electrician. He balked at the grounding system that we employ. Do they not have a separate grounding conductor for domestic service?

 

[CobyRupert]

I had a GFI circuit on the line that serviced my tractor block heater.
Well it snowed and that GFI kicked out as it detected moisture, No more for me.
Tractor block heater is no longer GFI protected.

They don't work worth a dammm with christmas lights either.

As per "Code": NEC, Article 210.8(A)(4) &(5): GFCI is required in "Crawl spaces- at or below grade level." and "Unfinished portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms."
Most local U.S. electric codes use the National Electric Code (NEC)(NFPA70).

GFCI don't kick out on moisture detected. They kick out when you have current leaking (shorting/faulting) to ground. If they trip, you probably have current leaking to ground.

When you have current leaking to ground, various things can happen depending on the amount and voltage:
1. Small leak: Nothing. If ground fault current is low enough that people don't "feel" a shock. Basically, if ground resistance is high enough to limit the fault current, or person is insulated enough (rubber boots, etc..) they may not feel any shocks. May people think this is just a "Nuisance trip", and rip out the GFCI and replace it with a standard breaker/receptacle. The problem is that a good ground path may develop later and one of the following occurs.
2. Medium current: If ground fault (G.F.) current amps are below rating of the breaker (say a 20 amp breaker, and G.F. current is only 15 amps), it can energize nearby metal parts all day and never trip, waiting for somebody to touch it. Shock or death may result.
3. A large short circuit develops. (i.e. a good, low resistance ground path exists) so that 100's/ 1000's/ 10,000's short circuit amps develops and a regular thermal-magnetic breaker trips. Hopefully no one nearby is touching any conductive parts during this short time-span event before breaker trips. This is why a good ground system and ground conductors are wanted. It's so that the ground fault is 1000's of amps and breaker trips, and you don't get scenario #2 mentioned above.

 

[buickanddeere]

We recently had our crawl space encapsulated which included a sump with dual independent pumps. Our local code requires dedicated 20 amp circuits for each pump but it leaves GFCI up to us. I Googled this topic and was presented with "yes you should" and "no you don't". What do you all do? For those that have your pumps on a GFIC, are there issues of the GFIC interrupting for no apparent reason?

If the device has a three prong plug the the electrical service has a working ground system .A GFCI is a mute point . Is there isna fault the equipment housing will be held to earth potential .
A GFCI in Ontario is not required on a microwave or washing machine if the machine obstructs handy access to the receptacle. Even if the appliance is within 6ft of a sink .
No GFCI on a sump pump however the receptacle should be made inaccessible and is to labeled for sump pump use only .
Fridge IS NOT to be on a GFCI or AFCI. Freezer in basement or laundry room is supposed to be on an AFCI.
An outside receptacle dedicated to use with only block heaters does not have to be GFCI.

 

[Industrial Toys]

In a way that is really dumb! A block heater in that mostly metal vehicle does represent a shock hazard, and nicly isolated with it's rubber wheels. Perfect for one standing in a slush puddle with leather shoes. The "working ground" system is key, but who assures that? Especially with old, worn chinese cords. How often is the ground pin broken off?

Not saying I want a GFI on my block heater, just the regulations are dumb.

 

[Cord]

We recently had our crawl space encapsulated which included a sump with dual independent pumps. Our local code requires dedicated 20 amp circuits for each pump but it leaves GFCI up to us. I Googled this topic and was presented with "yes you should" and "no you don't". What do you all do? For those that have your pumps on a GFIC, are there issues of the GFIC interrupting for no apparent reason?

Absolutely not. The work around is to put the pump on a dedicated circuit so you can take advantage of an exception.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Funny. If the GFI trips, there is an issue. A potential danger! Scary stuff! BUT, if there is a python in your crawl space and you never go down there, is it a threat? Maybe to the plumber, but hey, you aren't even related.

 

[buickanddeere]

In a way that is really dumb! A block heater in that mostly metal vehicle does represent a shock hazard, and nicly isolated with it's rubber wheels. Perfect for one standing in a slush puddle with leather shoes. The "working ground" system is key, but who assures that? Especially with old, worn chinese cords. How often is the ground pin broken off?

Not saying I want a GFI on my block heater, just the regulations are dumb.

Block heater has a three prong plug and a ground . The chassis is held to earth potential . You ain’t getting a shock from the chassis.