Backup Generator

[techman]

I did not opt for an auto transfer switch since if we were not home I felt I did not want the genset running. I did a manual transfer arrangement. I can start the generator from my garage or basement. I have one light in the shed and one in the basement connected to the generator output, so when the power goes out I can start the genset and have light to do the transfer, etc. Later I built a small controller that switches off the hot water heater (a big load), but with an override switch to "recharge" the hot water as needed. It also has a voltage detector on the incoming grid power and will sound a signal when the grid is back up. Our house is rural enough that we often did not know that the power was restored. It alerts only when grid power is on and the generator is running.

paul

 

[LittleBill21]

I understand the reasons for 1800 vs 3600, diesel and such, but what about a simple, somewhat inexpensive and reliable unit that will not likely be used much - and when used would only be used for lights, TV, and maybe at times a fridge, furnace fan - and then for only a few hours? I don't think I need to invest in a unit which is optimal in all aspects. Wouldn't a champion, or generac or similar unit work in these circumstances? I have many times bought way more than I needed in other equipment and such but am starting to rethink that strategy. Also, would an inverter work ( just starting to read about those)?

I will give you my take on it.

Most people over buy as far as I'm concerned. why buy a unit rated for 50k hours if your going to run it 1k hours

you need to personally look at how long your gonna run it, how much fuel its gonna use, and how much power it needs to deliver.

some people are hugely hung up on rpms, most prolly don't know inverter units can run over 4k rpm at full load

most also don't know how to calculate what size generator they need.

in my house, which use to have a ton more outages. i have 2 generators, a large unit 7k watts to run well and water heater. and a inverter 2k series for the other 90% of the time. i have less then 1.5k invested. I can easily afford the kuboto talked about here, but i don't see thousands of hours in usage a year, **** i haven't seen 2 hours in 3 years. so no it doesn't make much sense to buy that much generator even though my large unit uses over 1gph at full load. i will never recoup the upcharge needed for the bigger unit.

most people never see the ROI, you have to decide what is important for you and run the numbers

 

[TheMan419]

I will give you my take on it.

Most people over buy as far as I'm concerned. why buy a unit rated or 50k hours if your going to run it 1k hours

you need to personally look at how long your gonna run it, how much fuel its gonna use, and how much power it needs to deliver.

some people are hugely hung up on rpms, most prolly don't know inverter units can run over 4k rpm at full load

most also don't know how to calculate what size generator they need.

in my house, which use to have a ton more outages. i have 2 generators, a large unit 7k watts to run well and water heater. and a inverter 2k series for the other 90% of the time. i have less then 1.5k invested. I can easily afford the kuboto talked about here, but i don't see thousands of hours in usage a year, **** i haven't seen 2 hours in 3 years. so no it doesn't make much sense to buy that much generator even though my large unit uses over 1gph at full load. i will never recoup the upcharge needed for the bigger unit.

most people never see the ROI, you have to decide what is important for you and run the numbers

Winner! We have a 7kw gasser. Runs all the essentials. If I had more outages I would buy a 3kw inverter so I could run the heat all night or watch tv wo consuming a ton of fuel.

 

[Industrial Toys]

To me, the only thing worse than the noise of a little screaming gasser would be messing around with gas cans. Knowing how many you might need. Trips into town to get them. In bad weather, I stay put.

How much use do people actually get from those HUGE decks, gazibos or golf clubs (Even club memberships) ? Or that Bass boat! Talk about poor ROI. Yet it's funny, becaue often people in those higher socioeconomic classes are the last to want to spend money on an ugly diesel generator.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

-

A lot of people disparage PTO generators. But with the price of a good 15KW Kubota engine powered generator around $9K, and a good 15KW Winco PTO generator around $2K that leaves $7K difference one could put into a tractor.

Of course that doesn't apply to me. I got my 12KW winco for $600.

I paid $1,250.00 for mine NEW, it's a 15kw, it's sure nice to have around.

We always have a tractor up and running perfectly, so it's no big deal to use it on the generator.

Right now, I have my generator in the barn/shop and I use it when I'm welding, to exercise it... I power it with a small Kubota when doing so.

SR

 

[LouNY]

I like the pto ones myself, mine is well over 20 years old,
I believe it was around $900 back then for a 25kw.
I usually have a couple tractors here and a few more that I have access to.
I am kind of browsing for a smaller tractor,20-30 hp but I expect it will be awhile before I find one at a price I'll
pay for it. Be nice to have less hp on it at night when it only needs 1000 to 6000 watts.

 

[beowulf]

you need to personally look at how long your gonna run it, how much fuel its gonna use, and how much power it needs to deliver.

Thanks LittleBill,
Everything you say makes sense. A final question - as I am still trying to understand the generator vs inverter generator issue - you mention you use an inverter 90% of the time. . . would an inverter make sense for me based on my usages as outlined in my post?

 

[RoyKing]

Two big questions do you think you will be able to drive after the storm to get gas, my situation from experience is no, roads took 3/4 days to open gasoline ran out before the storm even got here from people leaving and hoarding. The lawn mower screamer experience worked fine first time, put away winterized it, years later started right up failed two hours later, leaked capacitor. How big of load do you want to run, if just refrigerator and lights anything will do. If you want well and AC and hot water need much bigger. For me in Florida storms come in hot weather, so I need the 3 big ones

 

[LittleBill21]

Thanks LittleBill,
Everything you say makes sense. A final question - as I am still trying to understand the generator vs inverter generator issue - you mention you use an inverter 90% of the time. . . would an inverter make sense for me based on my usages as outlined in my post?

inverter generators are pretty simple. they rev up and down depending on load, this allows them to be much more fuel efficient. they are also much quieter at low load. they also provide cleaner electricity to devices that care about it. they can also be portable and used elsewhere. the con is they generally cost 1/3 to 2/3 more then a non inverter generator. also most do not have the capability to provide 240v but they can be combined (paralleled) to increase their power output if needed.

i honestly can't answer your question, its a personal decision, if your comfortable only running 3-4 a day, then no a secondary generator doesn't make sense. you want one around 3500 watts( for basic usage, you need to add up the appliances you want to run to make the final decision) which is roughly 700-900 bucks, the 2k units will generally run a fridge and lights and tv, but will generally not run a coffee maker or microwave while powering the other loads. my inverter generator runs on a gallon over 6+ hours at half load, so the smaller generator will be used primarily, unless i need to run the well/ take a shower, use the oven. we are the kind of people who can turn off the power completely and pretty much be fine for 2 weeks, but some people don't work that way.

some of the champion inverter generators have electric REMOTE start, that might excite you

you have to decide what your budget is, i don't like spending people's money. and i agree with Roy you need to watch gas usage as well. i generally keep 10g around, and can add 15 gallons if need be. I have not needed it yet.

be aware if you do dual fuel, propane has less energy, thus the generator gets derated. i think on the champions its the green color rating for propane

if you buy an electric start make sure you buy a battery tender as well...

if you buy gas, just make sure to run it completely out of gas when your done, and you will never have carb issues.

 

[ericm979]

i agree with Roy you need to watch gas usage as well. i generally keep 10g around, and can add 15 gallons if need be. I have not needed it yet.

I figure I can siphon gas from the 38 gallon tank in the truck if I need to. Before I had that truck I did once have to make an emergency run out the only open road to a remote gas station in the mountains to buy some overpriced gas.

We run the whole house (minus oven, well pump and AC) off a 5kw Honda. Our outages are in the winter and our water's gravity fed from a 10k gallon tank so the only thing we're really missing is the oven.

The Honda has been totally reliable. Turning the main service off and plugging the generator in is kind of a hassle, and PG&E's tree clearing and service is not going to get better any time soon. We usually lose power for a total of at least a week per year, often two. I plan to get a whole house propane generator but I have to move the propane tank and run a line across the paved driveway. It'll have to be able to be turned on and off manually as I would not want it running all night.

 

[LittleBill21]

I figure I can siphon gas from the 38 gallon tank in the truck if I need to. Before I had that truck I did once have to make an emergency run out the only open road to a remote gas station in the mountains to buy some overpriced gas.

We run the whole house (minus oven, well pump and AC) off a 5kw Honda. Our outages are in the winter and our water's gravity fed from a 10k gallon tank so the only thing we're really missing is the oven.

The Honda has been totally reliable. Turning the main service off and plugging the generator in is kind of a hassle, and PG&E's tree clearing and service is not going to get better any time soon. We usually lose power for a total of at least a week per year, often two. I plan to get a whole house propane generator but I have to move the propane tank and run a line across the paved driveway. It'll have to be able to be turned on and off manually as I would not want it running all night.

be aware if you are expecting to drain the truck tank, if its a newer vehicle they generally have a defeat device in the filler neck to prevent it being siphoned (might want to see if your vehicle has one). they do make a kit to bypass it, but maybe your not aware of that, otherwise you will need to remove the filler hose, or pull the fuel pump.

your 5k should easily run the well pump, what size well pump do you have? i have a 3/4 horse and have run the well off a older 3500 generator. my 7k doesn't even care. i also run my electric water heater and dryer if need be off my 7k. ( of course one at a time). My house is 100% electric.

even the oven can be run, if you watch the loads. i can run 3 burners before my 7k is maxxed. or 2 small and the oven. just have to watch the loads. i personally push my generator till it trips so i know its limits then i know what i can run when the power actually goes out.

it can be a bit stressful even when fully prepared. i like to know ahead of time what can be run.

 

[Hunter29]

it can be a bit stressful even when fully prepared. i like to know ahead of time what can be run.

Get an amp meter, overloading a generator, especially a small cheap one could cost you in electronics getting fried.

 

[Hunter29]

Down size check your PM

 

[Hunter29]

To me, the only thing worse than the noise of a little screaming gasser would be messing around with gas cans. Knowing how many you might need. Trips into town to get them. In bad weather, I stay put.

How much use do people actually get from those HUGE decks, gazibos or golf clubs (Even club memberships) ? Or that Bass boat! Talk about poor ROI. Yet it's funny, becaue often people in those higher socioeconomic classes are the last to want to spend money on an ugly diesel generator.

There not ugly, there beautiful..

 

[grsthegreat]

A liquid cooled generator will outperform any air cooled unit. Period. Even generacs website states that their air cooled units are not designed for off grid use. There BACK UP UNITS.

GENERAC DOES HAVE AN OFF GRID AIR COOLED VERSION, but it has a 5 quart oil bath instead of the usual 1.7 quart version.

A 4 pole rotor is so large and heavy an air cooled motor just cant handle it. Generacs liquid cooled 22 generator has a huge rotor. I question weather a 4 pole is any better than a 2 pole as far as output goes. My 22 air cooled keeps its output very steady. The lights dont even flicker.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

A 4 pole rotor is so large and heavy an air cooled motor just cant handle it.

aaaawww, not always true... An air cooled Deutz or SLH will easily power a 4 pole genset!

SR

 

[LittleBill21]

GENERAC DOES HAVE AN OFF GRID AIR COOLED VERSION, but it has a 5 quart oil bath instead of the usual 1.7 quart version.

.

I was under the impression that was for extended oil changes? 200 hours? vs 50?

 

[LittleBill21]

Get an amp meter, overloading a generator, especially a small cheap one could cost you in electronics getting fried.

i own prolly 7, i only do it for a split second, i watch the hz and voltage the entire time I'm loading. I've learned u can actually push them more then what they are rated on average.

 

[RoyKing]

All machines will run over for awhile, and how long is the big question, how you rate them. KVA or KW the difference KW uses power factor. The most accepted PF is 80%. So a fair way is KW at 80'C continuous duty. So you may find a 16kva that will actually only do 11KW continuous. Another fact is how much copper versus alum in the rotor. The hardest load is a motor with large static load, pump, winch. To your alternator they look like short, so how long at 300% over rated can they hold the load look for 10 seconds. Modern Air conditioners are not hard to start. A well having to move all that water is hard to start.

 

[shooterdon]

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308467_200308467

What about something like this for those of us who need emergency power and are not trying to run a business or a farm?
My plan would be to mount it on a carry all and move it into place when needed. Do I need to construct a canopy to keep the weather off it while it is running? Having it mounted on a carry all would allow me to help neighbors as well.

I am trying to stay away from gas units as these things are not used much and gas can go bad quickly. I have propane but it is an expensive fuel option.