GM pickup truck plant announcement yesterday

[aczlan]

Actually i was putting forward the idea of towing a small trailer the size and load capacity of a half ton pickup behind that compact car, which is the preferred way in Europe for private transportation requirements. I explained that with European weight based road tax and high excise on fuel, driving a pickup as a private transportation means, would be a huge financial burden on an average family income. My 20 year old Volvo is as far as i am willing to go, in the trade-off between economy per driven km, versus what i can tow. For me it is the same: the money i save, going from 50mpg at 1.35 euro per liter and the 150 euro per month i pay in road tax with my Volvo, to what my colleague drives: a VW Polo 1.6 TDI that gets 60mpg and costs 100 euro per month in tax, i could not cover the cost of an old Sprinter with dropsides to cover my occasional hauling needs.

But even with American fuel prices, it could still save you quite some money if you could attach that half ton pickup bed with a ball coupler to a more fuel efficient commuter vehicle, whenever you need more space than just the trunk... but apparently the actual point gets lost in the noise when people take it on themselves

The problem is that our towing limits are far short of European ones for cars.
I don't recall what the towing limit is for your EU market S70, but a US market S70 was limited to towing 3500 lb and that is high for something in that size class.
My current car is a 2008 Ford Taurus x which is built on the same platform as the XC90.
The XC90 was rated to tow 5000 lb, my car is rated to tow 2000 lb.

Aaron Z

 

[4570Man]

If a 16MPG pickup truck costs $2,000 a year in fuel to drive over a 35MPG compact car, that means that you have to be able to find a compact car that you can pay for, insure, keep up and register for less than $2,000 a year, or you're losing money over just driving the truck.

Aaron Z

In my state license for a passenger vehicle is under $30 a year. Insurance for a second vehicle with one driver isn’t much money. As in $500 or less. And your fuel only comparison isn’t completely accurate. Maintenance on the car is a lot less than the 4x4 pickup.

 

[Renze]

The problem is that our towing limits are far short of European ones for cars.
I don't recall what the towing limit is for your EU market S70, but a US market S70 was limited to towing 3500 lb and that is high for something in that size class.
My current car is a 2008 Ford Taurus x which is built on the same platform as the XC90.
The XC90 was rated to tow 5000 lb, my car is rated to tow 2000 lb.

Aaron Z

Yes, mine is 1600kg, but when i sat next to the police at a traffic light, with my 3011 on it with a tree stump as heavy as it could lift with the backhoe, they looked at me. When i watched them back, nodded as a greeting, and rolled off with my trusty old diesel without increasing engine revs untill i had the clutch fully engaged, everything - appeared- normal to them and they took a side turn.

Anyways, your Taurus: its 2000 pound tow rating is still more than the load capacity of an average half ton pickup. I dont know what tow rating, lets say, a VW Jetta or Honda Accord gets in America ?

 

[Renze]

In my state license for a passenger vehicle is under $30 a year. Insurance for a second vehicle with one driver isn稚 much money. As in $500 or less. And your fuel only comparison isn稚 completely accurate. Maintenance on the car is a lot less than the 4x4 pickup.

How do prices of pickup truck tires relate to, eg, the 205/55R16 i have under my Volvo ?
My neighbour pays in excess of 500 euro for the cheapest tires that will fit his 4x4. Are they just that expensive, or do we pay a premium for those sizes of tires because no tireman has them in stock, but has to order them special ?

 

[4570Man]

How do prices of pickup truck tires relate to, eg, the 205/55R16 i have under my Volvo ?
My neighbour pays in excess of 500 euro for the cheapest tires that will fit his 4x4. Are they just that expensive, or do we pay a premium for those sizes of tires because no tireman has them in stock, but has to order them special ?

It’s about $150 minimum for a 16” tire but you can easily spend $1000 for a set or probably more. USD and euro are pretty close so yea I’d say he’s paying a premium due to the limited availability in your area.

 

[Renze]

So prices for 4x4 tires are roughly the same on both sides of the ocean (double that of a standard car tire), and the way bigger numbers sold in the US do not drive down the retail price compared to Europe...

My neighbour has this 4x4 because he traps moles for farmers, and it sees the highway so little that his 5th gear shifts stiff compared to the others it drives like a doghouse on wheels by the way, it doesnt give any feedback about the road conditions youre driving on, and steering is very indirect, when you steer, it first leans over to decide what its gonna do, then a second later it starts to veer. It makes 60kmh feel very fast

 

[aczlan]

So prices for 4x4 tires are roughly the same on both sides of the ocean (double that of a standard car tire), and the way bigger numbers sold in the US do not drive down the retail price compared to Europe...

My neighbour has this 4x4 because he traps moles for farmers, and it sees the highway so little that his 5th gear shifts stiff compared to the others ���� it drives like a doghouse on wheels by the way, it doesnt give any feedback about the road conditions youre driving on, and steering is very indirect, when you steer, it first leans over to decide what its gonna do, then a second later it starts to veer. It makes 60kmh feel very fast ��

My wife drives a 2005 Yukon, it replaced a 2002 Caravan about 5 years ago.
We went from 19MPG to 14MPG, for the 12,000ish miles per year that it sees, that is about $900/year difference in fuel with gas at $4/gallon, or about $630/year with fuel in the current $2.70-3.00/gallon range that we see now.
Tires were significantly more expensive, but comparing "modern rim" tire sizes (between my Taurus X and her Yukon), its about $200/set difference for 40,000 mile tires which we run down to 2/3rds gone, then sell for $100 to someone looking to throw some tires on something to sell it.
Liability insurance was a little more, but not much ($50/year?).
She likes it much better than the Caravan, it is more stable on the interstate (gets pushed around a little less than the Caravan did by crosswinds), it can tow more than twice as much (7700# vs 3500#), has more room for the kids (or adults) in the seats and it has significantly more cargo room with all of the seats up.

Yes, we could have gone with a smaller SUV or another minivan, but one the reason we were getting rid of the Caravan was that it was essentially built to be disposable and I wasn't tired of working on designed failure points and wasnt overly inclined to start down that road again.

Edit: At the time, we were also having some issues with the farm truck (age and rust, brakes weren't always as strong as they should have been), so being able to tow a loaded haywagon was a big plus to the Yukon.

Aaron Z

 

[DMax82]

I would say that trying to have one vehicle for everything is going to involve a ton of compromises, it's just up to each individual to decide what is most important to them, and what they are willing to sacrifice. As mentioned previously, I use a 2005 Lexus GX470 and a couple of trailers. I love that car, but it is far from perfect in regards to everything I want it to do. Below is a list of my needs, how well the GX meets them, and the vehicle I would rather have...lol. The list isn't prioritized, just listed as they occurred to me.

1) Be comfortable for long drives on the interstates and country roads. Need to be able to haul four people plus luggage. It does okay for this. The cabin is quiet and the ride is smooth. Being a Lexus the inside is very comfortable. Would rather have: a big sedan like a Lexus LS460.

2) Be able to tow a trailer. Again, it does just okay. It does great for materials, but can't pull my tractor. Rated to pull 6500 pounds, can't tow a gooseneck, obviously. Would rather have: A one ton flatbed 4x4 dually with a big gas engine.

3) Be able to go offroad. Okay, it actually excels at this. Yes people think of Lexuses as soccer mom cars, but this one is based on the Land Cruiser Prado, and I have seen them in action all over the world. They are beasts, and mine does very well in stock form, even when pulling a loaded military trailer. Would rather have: Yes I just sang it's praises, but the top doesn't go down! So Jeep Wrangler.

4) Be able to sleep in it. I camp a lot, usually in a tent, but sometimes in the dead of winter with lots of snow I sleep in the back of my car. I am on the short side, but it still would be nice to have just a little more space. I have to lay on a diagonal. Would rather have: an Earthroamer!!!

5) Secure/dry storage. I need to carry tools and other valuables around a lot, often in "the hood", so being able to lock things up at least makes people have to work a little harder to steal my stuff. The cargo area isn't massive, although putting down the rear seats helps. Would rather have: Renze's Sprinter.

6) Have a low cost of ownership. Toyota reliability! No complaints here. I bought it at 11 years old with 140k miles. Almost 3 years later it just hit 200k. Oil changes, new tires, and new brakes are all I've done to it. Gas mileage isn't great, but fuel is relatively cheap right now. Would rather have: a small car like a Lexus IS350, if only for the improved MPG.

7) Be affordable. It cost me $10.5k. These pushed $60k new. I honestly would have preferred a Toyota Sequoia first generation, but I couldn't find one with leather and 4wd within $3k of what I paid for this. Another nice thing about these cars is that when people pay so much for them new, they take great care of them.

8) Good resale value. Probably won't be much of an issue as I doubt I'll ever sell it, but I feel confident that I could get $8k right now after almost 3 years and over 60k miles.

9) Look good. I like the way this model looks much better than the newer GX470. It just has classic lines in my opinion. I don't call her "Sexy Lexie" for nothing!

I have actually been thinking about selling my Lexus to buy the previously mentioned one-ton flatbed and pairing it with something like a Pontiac Vibe, but while those two would do some things exceptionally well (towing and low operating cost come to mind), they still would leave gaps (sleeping). Oh well, I reckon I need to have three vehicles...lol.

 

[Renze]

Yes, we could have gone with a smaller SUV or another minivan, but one the reason we were getting rid of the Caravan was that it was essentially built to be disposable and I wasn't tired of working on designed failure points and wasnt overly inclined to start down that road again.

We can agree on the Caravan, it is the most widely sold MPV because of its price, yet its place in the market is allmost entirely overtaken by more reliable alternatives, either purposedly designed as a fashionable MPV (peugeot 807, Mitsubishi spacewagon, Renault espace) or passenger versions of commercial vans (Merc V class, VW Caravelle, Renault Trafic, Fiat Ducato)

The Chrysler Voyager shat itself reliability wise, and even rebadging it as Didge Caravan and lately under FiatChrysler as Lancia Phedra, and now Lancia Grand Caravan, did not help. Everybody recognises the POS and wont buy it no matter how they disguise it

 

[zing]

So prices for 4x4 tires are roughly the same on both sides of the ocean (double that of a standard car tire), and the way bigger numbers sold in the US do not drive down the retail price compared to Europe...

My neighbour has this 4x4 because he traps moles for farmers, and it sees the highway so little that his 5th gear shifts stiff compared to the others ���� it drives like a doghouse on wheels by the way, it doesnt give any feedback about the road conditions youre driving on, and steering is very indirect, when you steer, it first leans over to decide what its gonna do, then a second later it starts to veer. It makes 60kmh feel very fast ��

What? No.

I put 4 mid quality tires (I forget the brand) on my forester (205 somethings about the same as yours) for about $675. I put 4 firestone transforce tires on my F-250 for $720. Nothing close to double the price, especially since a quarter of the cost is tire disposal levies, installation and balancing, etc. Those are the same for every tire and so I have to pay them for every extra vehicle/trailer that I buy.

Plus these broncos and mole-farmer-can't-drive-60km/hr vehicles you seem to be talking about are a far cry from modern pickup truck. You keep giving way off base and irrelevant examples to justify your argument. Your whole compromise argument makes no more sense, because everything is a compromise. Your volvo is a compromise between a bicycle and a school bus, but how is that relevant to a discussion about it's usefulness?