GM pickup truck plant announcement yesterday

[dalola]

No, its you relating my general comments in a wider discussion on vehicle design, onto your personal choices. You may call that arrogance if that makes you comfortable.

Hint: If you're going to make a "general comment", don't quote someone specifically before making it. :thumbsup:

Excuse me ? You specifically asked me to point out where your vehicle was a compromise. You seem to have a different conception of the word compromise: From a designers viewpoint, (which i happen to be) every design is a compromise, a tradeoff between the various design requirements: it doesnt mean that the vehicle is compromised, as in: hampered.

As an end-user, yeah, compromise has an entirely different meaning. No one evaluates their vehicle purchase based on a designer mindset. If the designer has done their job properly, any "compromises" inherent in the design should be unnoticed, or at worst, minimal, to the intended end-user.

By definition, a multipurpose vehicle is a compromise. When your F150 ticks all the boxes of your wishlist, it doesnt mean your vehicle isnt a compromise between the multitude of tasks, it just means that its designers made the right compromises.

I have no idea what point you're even trying to make here. You seem to have trouble staying focused on the specific topics I challenged you on.

This horse has clearly been beat to death. Time to move on. Cheers!

 

[zing]

I still think AWD is overrated for most winter driving. I drove a RWD BMW wagon with Blizzaks on all 4 wheels for several years, including to ski in VT and driving around in Quebec in the winter. The only time it might help is if you have a lot of snow drifts on the road. (That said, my wife has a Subaru Impreza and I have a V70 AWD as well as the Sierra.)

I have to completely disagree with you on that one. Not angrily or rudely, just completely. :thumbsup:

I'm not saying you can't drive a rear wheel drive car in the winter, I am saying that AWD is easier, safer, especially when you are talking about less experienced drivers. Snow tires are irrelevant, because snow tires should be on in the winter regardless of whether you have 2 or 4 wheel drive.

- There are often snow drifts on the roads. If it has been snowing all night and the plows are still trying to keep the main roads clear but you have to get to work, or it snowed all day but you have to get home, then you can expect thick snow on the side streets and plow lines at most intersections with a main road. That is a regular winter occurrence here. Doesn't happen every day, but often enough.
- When a rear wheel drive car stops on a hill because there is a light at the middle or top of the hill, it is far less able to get moving again than an AWD. Especially in traffic. A front wheel drive is better than an RWD, but still not as good as AWD. As soon as they start to spin and slide diagonally or very slowly move forward, the cars behind them start to accordion, and they often have to stop and start repeatedly too. As well, as cars start to spin they create ice under their tires making it even worse for the cars that stop the next time the light is red. My S-10 pickup was useless if I had to start on a hill, even with winter tires. It was really only marginally drive-able after I heaped the bed with snow and a couple of sand bags to give it some extra weight. Even then you had to feather the clutch and take it easy to get moving on a slippery hill. You are from NH so I know you have driven in snow storms. You must have seen this too.
- An AWD is far less likely to fishtail when rounding a corner than a RWD, even when driving at respectable speeds. My old 5-speed, rear-wheel drive Saab 9-3 was quite rear heavy so it was a ball of fun in the winter because it could fishtail at 10-15 kms/hr going around a corner. I used to love it, but my wife hated it.
- It doesn't take a lot of snow to be slippery. When it is really cold and has been cold for a while, it is easier to drive than when it is close to the freezing point and the temp is moving up and down. Even a half an inch of snow when the temperature is near the freezing point can make the roads like grease. Especially when the first bit of snow melts on the road and then the snow on top of it starts to make it freeze. I find that first inch or so of snow will often be more likely to give cars traction problems, than 6 to 10 inches of snow if it has been cold for days or weeks. An AWD does a much better job of giving you traction in those greasy conditions than a 2WD car does.
- Experience/lack of experience is a factor. I can't always be there to drive my wife/teenagers whenever the snow flies. Even though it can be argued that a good, experienced driver could handle the conditions fine in a 2WD, that isn't going to be the case when my daughter is behind the wheel, so giving her traction on all 4 wheels does make a difference.
- The one that nobody seems to mention, is that if you do slide off the side of the road, AWD is more likely to get you back out. Of course if you go flying into the ditch it doesn't matter, but if you slide a bit off the side you are generally stuck with 2WD. Sometimes you can get back on with a push or if you rock it back and forth a bit, but you can do that with an AWD too. All things being equal, if you slide off the road an AWD is much more likely to get you back out onto the road without needing a tow.
- The big one that I will give you is stopping. AWD is not going to stop faster, and all of the dummies putting their SUV's and pickups in the ditch every winter because they think AWD/4WD means you can drive like it is summertime are proof of that. They probably stop worse at stopping because AWD cars are generally heavier and have more inertia.

Whenever i have this conversation (and I am not saying you did this, just that it usually happens) people start making apple/banana comparisons. "Yeah but an experienced driver and winter tires and driving at a reasonable speed, vs an inexperienced driver with bald all-seasons and driving too fast" ... when all things are equal though, AWD just makes it easier, safer, and more forgiving to drive in greasy, snowy, icy conditions. Zero question. Can you drive in winter with a rear-wheel or front wheel drive car? Of course you can. But is isn't on an equal footing with AWD. Experience, driving for the conditions, and good tires are easily the most important factors for winter driving, but apples to apples, AWD is still better than 2WD.

The other thing they say is "Just stay off the roads when the weather is bad", but that isn't very realistic either for most people. Road conditions change all the time. You can be driving and the roads are clear, and before you get home the snow is falling and it gets greasy, or the roads are fine in one area but a fast freeze 20 kms away has caused black ice all over the place. Even the top of a big hill can have different road conditions than the base of it. If you have to get to work or pick up the kids after school, it doesn't matter what the weather is, you have to go out. Can't spend half the winter in the house, nor would I want to.

I am not saying a RWD BMW wagon with Blizzaks wouldn't work in the winter, and I am sure you were able to get it to the ski hill perfectly fine. My argument is that a good AWD with blizzaks would handle it better and be more forgiving. I also don't think the difference is "just-barely" or "once in a while". To me the difference is significant and frequent enough to matter. Of course, you having a different life from me, the exact opposite may be true.

Cheers. :thumbsup:

 

[tractorshopper]

Yes, mine is 1600kg, but when i sat next to the police at a traffic light, with my 3011 on it with a tree stump as heavy as it could lift with the backhoe, they looked at me. When i watched them back, nodded as a greeting, and rolled off with my trusty old diesel without increasing engine revs untill i had the clutch fully engaged, everything - appeared- normal to them and they took a side turn.

Anyways, your Taurus: its 2000 pound tow rating is still more than the load capacity of an average half ton pickup. I dont know what tow rating, lets say, a VW Jetta or Honda Accord gets in America ?

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I don't follow your point. The Taurus tow rating includes the trailer weight. Yes a 1/2 ton pickup may only be rated to less than a ton in the bed of the truck, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Most half ton pick-ups have a bed load rating of more than a half-ton, but the tow rating for them probably averages about 5 tons.

 

[dalola]

I have to completely disagree with you on that one. Not angrily or rudely, just completely. :thumbsup:

I'm not saying you can't drive a rear wheel drive car in the winter, I am saying that AWD is easier, safer, especially when you are talking about less experienced drivers. Snow tires are irrelevant, because snow tires should be on in the winter regardless of whether you have 2 or 4 wheel drive.

- There are often snow drifts on the roads. If it has been snowing all night and the plows are still trying to keep the main roads clear but you have to get to work, or it snowed all day but you have to get home, then you can expect thick snow on the side streets and plow lines at most intersections with a main road. That is a regular winter occurrence here. Doesn't happen every day, but often enough.
- When a rear wheel drive car stops on a hill because there is a light at the middle or top of the hill, it is far less able to get moving again than an AWD. Especially in traffic. A front wheel drive is better than an RWD, but still not as good as AWD. As soon as they start to spin and slide diagonally or very slowly move forward, the cars behind them start to accordion, and they often have to stop and start repeatedly too. As well, as cars start to spin they create ice under their tires making it even worse for the cars that stop the next time the light is red. My S-10 pickup was useless if I had to start on a hill, even with winter tires. It was really only marginally drive-able after I heaped the bed with snow and a couple of sand bags to give it some extra weight. Even then you had to feather the clutch and take it easy to get moving on a slippery hill. You are from NH so I know you have driven in snow storms. You must have seen this too.
- An AWD is far less likely to fishtail when rounding a corner than a RWD, even when driving at respectable speeds. My old 5-speed, rear-wheel drive Saab 9-3 was quite rear heavy so it was a ball of fun in the winter because it could fishtail at 10-15 kms/hr going around a corner. I used to love it, but my wife hated it.
- It doesn't take a lot of snow to be slippery. When it is really cold and has been cold for a while, it is easier to drive than when it is close to the freezing point and the temp is moving up and down. Even a half an inch of snow when the temperature is near the freezing point can make the roads like grease. Especially when the first bit of snow melts on the road and then the snow on top of it starts to make it freeze. I find that first inch or so of snow will often be more likely to give cars traction problems, than 6 to 10 inches of snow if it has been cold for days or weeks. An AWD does a much better job of giving you traction in those greasy conditions than a 2WD car does.
- Experience/lack of experience is a factor. I can't always be there to drive my wife/teenagers whenever the snow flies. Even though it can be argued that a good, experienced driver could handle the conditions fine in a 2WD, that isn't going to be the case when my daughter is behind the wheel, so giving her traction on all 4 wheels does make a difference.
- The one that nobody seems to mention, is that if you do slide off the side of the road, AWD is more likely to get you back out. Of course if you go flying into the ditch it doesn't matter, but if you slide a bit off the side you are generally stuck with 2WD. Sometimes you can get back on with a push or if you rock it back and forth a bit, but you can do that with an AWD too. All things being equal, if you slide off the road an AWD is much more likely to get you back out onto the road without needing a tow.
- The big one that I will give you is stopping. AWD is not going to stop faster, and all of the dummies putting their SUV's and pickups in the ditch every winter because they think AWD/4WD means you can drive like it is summertime are proof of that. They probably stop worse at stopping because AWD cars are generally heavier and have more inertia.

Whenever i have this conversation (and I am not saying you did this, just that it usually happens) people start making apple/banana comparisons. "Yeah but an experienced driver and winter tires and driving at a reasonable speed, vs an inexperienced driver with bald all-seasons and driving too fast" ... when all things are equal though, AWD just makes it easier, safer, and more forgiving to drive in greasy, snowy, icy conditions. Zero question. Can you drive in winter with a rear-wheel or front wheel drive car? Of course you can. But is isn't on an equal footing with AWD. Experience, driving for the conditions, and good tires are easily the most important factors for winter driving, but apples to apples, AWD is still better than 2WD.

The other thing they say is "Just stay off the roads when the weather is bad", but that isn't very realistic either for most people. Road conditions change all the time. You can be driving and the roads are clear, and before you get home the snow is falling and it gets greasy, or the roads are fine in one area but a fast freeze 20 kms away has caused black ice all over the place. Even the top of a big hill can have different road conditions than the base of it. If you have to get to work or pick up the kids after school, it doesn't matter what the weather is, you have to go out. Can't spend half the winter in the house, nor would I want to.

I am not saying a RWD BMW wagon with Blizzaks wouldn't work in the winter, and I am sure you were able to get it to the ski hill perfectly fine. My argument is that a good AWD with blizzaks would handle it better and be more forgiving. I also don't think the difference is "just-barely" or "once in a while". To me the difference is significant and frequent enough to matter. Of course, you having a different life from me, the exact opposite may be true.

Cheers. :thumbsup:

Well stated, & I completely agree.

 

[Jstpssng]

How do prices of pickup truck tires relate to, eg, the 205/55R16 i have under my Volvo ?
My neighbour pays in excess of 500 euro for the cheapest tires that will fit his 4x4. Are they just that expensive, or do we pay a premium for those sizes of tires because no tireman has them in stock, but has to order them special ?

I paid $800 for the 10 ply tires on my Ranger, my mother paid $200 per for snow tires on her Hyundai. That was quite a price difference.

 

[gojira]

I have to completely disagree with you on that one. Not angrily or rudely, just completely. :thumbsup:

I'm not saying you can't drive a rear wheel drive car in the winter, I am saying that AWD is easier, safer, especially when you are talking about less experienced drivers. Snow tires are irrelevant, because snow tires should be on in the winter regardless of whether you have 2 or 4 wheel drive.

- There are often snow drifts on the roads. If it has been snowing all night and the plows are still trying to keep the main roads clear but you have to get to work, or it snowed all day but you have to get home, then you can expect thick snow on the side streets and plow lines at most intersections with a main road. That is a regular winter occurrence here. Doesn't happen every day, but often enough.
- When a rear wheel drive car stops on a hill because there is a light at the middle or top of the hill, it is far less able to get moving again than an AWD. Especially in traffic. A front wheel drive is better than an RWD, but still not as good as AWD. As soon as they start to spin and slide diagonally or very slowly move forward, the cars behind them start to accordion, and they often have to stop and start repeatedly too. As well, as cars start to spin they create ice under their tires making it even worse for the cars that stop the next time the light is red. My S-10 pickup was useless if I had to start on a hill, even with winter tires. It was really only marginally drive-able after I heaped the bed with snow and a couple of sand bags to give it some extra weight. Even then you had to feather the clutch and take it easy to get moving on a slippery hill. You are from NH so I know you have driven in snow storms. You must have seen this too.
- An AWD is far less likely to fishtail when rounding a corner than a RWD, even when driving at respectable speeds. My old 5-speed, rear-wheel drive Saab 9-3 was quite rear heavy so it was a ball of fun in the winter because it could fishtail at 10-15 kms/hr going around a corner. I used to love it, but my wife hated it.
- It doesn't take a lot of snow to be slippery. When it is really cold and has been cold for a while, it is easier to drive than when it is close to the freezing point and the temp is moving up and down. Even a half an inch of snow when the temperature is near the freezing point can make the roads like grease. Especially when the first bit of snow melts on the road and then the snow on top of it starts to make it freeze. I find that first inch or so of snow will often be more likely to give cars traction problems, than 6 to 10 inches of snow if it has been cold for days or weeks. An AWD does a much better job of giving you traction in those greasy conditions than a 2WD car does.
- Experience/lack of experience is a factor. I can't always be there to drive my wife/teenagers whenever the snow flies. Even though it can be argued that a good, experienced driver could handle the conditions fine in a 2WD, that isn't going to be the case when my daughter is behind the wheel, so giving her traction on all 4 wheels does make a difference.
- The one that nobody seems to mention, is that if you do slide off the side of the road, AWD is more likely to get you back out. Of course if you go flying into the ditch it doesn't matter, but if you slide a bit off the side you are generally stuck with 2WD. Sometimes you can get back on with a push or if you rock it back and forth a bit, but you can do that with an AWD too. All things being equal, if you slide off the road an AWD is much more likely to get you back out onto the road without needing a tow.
- The big one that I will give you is stopping. AWD is not going to stop faster, and all of the dummies putting their SUV's and pickups in the ditch every winter because they think AWD/4WD means you can drive like it is summertime are proof of that. They probably stop worse at stopping because AWD cars are generally heavier and have more inertia.

Whenever i have this conversation (and I am not saying you did this, just that it usually happens) people start making apple/banana comparisons. "Yeah but an experienced driver and winter tires and driving at a reasonable speed, vs an inexperienced driver with bald all-seasons and driving too fast" ... when all things are equal though, AWD just makes it easier, safer, and more forgiving to drive in greasy, snowy, icy conditions. Zero question. Can you drive in winter with a rear-wheel or front wheel drive car? Of course you can. But is isn't on an equal footing with AWD. Experience, driving for the conditions, and good tires are easily the most important factors for winter driving, but apples to apples, AWD is still better than 2WD.

The other thing they say is "Just stay off the roads when the weather is bad", but that isn't very realistic either for most people. Road conditions change all the time. You can be driving and the roads are clear, and before you get home the snow is falling and it gets greasy, or the roads are fine in one area but a fast freeze 20 kms away has caused black ice all over the place. Even the top of a big hill can have different road conditions than the base of it. If you have to get to work or pick up the kids after school, it doesn't matter what the weather is, you have to go out. Can't spend half the winter in the house, nor would I want to.

I am not saying a RWD BMW wagon with Blizzaks wouldn't work in the winter, and I am sure you were able to get it to the ski hill perfectly fine. My argument is that a good AWD with blizzaks would handle it better and be more forgiving. I also don't think the difference is "just-barely" or "once in a while". To me the difference is significant and frequent enough to matter. Of course, you having a different life from me, the exact opposite may be true.

Cheers. :thumbsup:

We'll agree to disagree; chacun à son goût

I do agree that most people don't realize that 4 wheel go does not equal 4 wheel stop. I commute the length of I-89 in NH from the state capital to the VT line and in winter it is a nasty road; the first vehicle I usually see off the road is either a 4wd pickup, an SUV or an AWD car.

 

[jmc]

^^^^^^ I Agree. This thread has run its course.

I was thinking about unsubscribing and I'm the OP!

 

[Renze]

This horse has clearly been beat to death. Time to move on. Cheers!

Glad you feel the same way.

 

[dalola]

I was thinking about unsubscribing and I'm the OP!

LOL.... sincerely sorry for the major hi-jack. At least your post got some legs, if nothing else! :drink:

 

[Agvg]

While the general idea of people who drive an American pickup truck in Europe is that they have to compensate for a small manhood....

Well, not in Scandinavia..... US pickups are quite common, and now I see a lot of new US pickups, and if you need 4WD, low range and high tow capacity and don't want to drive a commercial truck it's the logical choice.