NEW XR4145C with Issue

[Avenger]

Hello All,

First post, been lurking for a year or so.
I recently purchased a new XR4145C shuttle shift. Everything about this tractor is awesome and I could not be happier. Though I have only put about 10 hours or so in the last two weeks of ownership. However, while doing some loader work, I noticed the infamous "floppy bucket syndrome!" No, not me! Everything is working so well!!!

CRAP!

YouTube has a few videos of this happening. And then, YouTube also has a gentleman who has the same tractor I do, only HST. I asked him in the comments if he has this issue. He got back to me with a 'no, maybe you have air in the line.'

So, I started looking into fixes for this issue. I found the very popular add-a-flow-restrictor trick. I purchased the correct one from Amazon for $30 and installed it same day it arrived. I got it adjusted to where the tractor lugs down a little while curling the bucket up (I adjusted it from all the way closed to full open with same results). With the engine running at 1500rpm, the bucket still flops and takes about 3 seconds of pressure to reengage. When lowering the bucket down and putting pressure on the cutting edge, the bucket curls up almost like a float. This is not acceptable.

I spoke to my local dealer about it, but he has "never heard of the issue" and didn't say anymore about it. I will hound him some more, but I think that maybe pointless.

I have many projects where I need the bucket to function properly. Growing up on a larger farm, I know how FELs operate, and this is not it. I have checked the hydraulic pressure and adjusted the relief valve slightly, not enough to make any difference. The fluid level is correct as well. Not sure if it is the pump or maybe the control valve itself. A leaking seal should show different symptoms.

If this is just an LS thing, anyone know of any fixes that would correct this issue? Not sure what control valve I should be looking at as a replacement or what else I can do. 'Living with it,' as some suggest, is simply not an option. $30K for this tractor (with a few implements), it should function correctly.

Thank you in advance for all your thoughts and advice.

 

[void777]

Avenger:
Avenger :welcome: to TBN sorry to hear your problems with such a new tractor it's still under warranty let the dealer deal with it.

 

[3Lfarms]

Does it still do it when running at PTO RPM?
1500 RPM is pretty slow to expect much of the hydraulics.
Being a tier4 machine, you really want to be 2000 RPM or better when doing any work.

 

[sd455dan]

Does it still do it when running at PTO RPM?
1500 RPM is pretty slow to expect much of the hydraulics.
Being a tier4 machine, you really want to be 2000 RPM or better when doing any work.

Have to disagree Low RPM's should just result in slow movement of the bucket after the 1st actuation

Floppy bucket- sure seems like there have been a thread or 2 on TBN about it

found this 1


http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/352989-ls-tractor-bucket-flop-problem.html

 

[Snowman87]

Can you expand a bit more on what you're doing with the loader and what you're seeing? I noticed on mine that if I do something like a quick bucket dump and then immediately try to use the bucket to back drag material my bucket can be "floppy". That said, if I know I'm going to back drag and I tip the bucket against the ground until there is evident force and then maybe curl it back a little bit to set the angle where I want it then I don't have any bucket flop. It's almost like the weight of the bucket evacuates the fluid on one side of the cylinder too fast, and it takes a short amount of time for the dump side of the bucket cylinders to recover. I believe that's what the flow restricter is supposed to help with.

Maybe you could try experimenting and see if you have similar results?

 

[Snowman87]

Low RPM's on any (Normal) FEL will just result in slow movement of the bucket

Floppy bucket- sure seems like there have been a thread or 2 on TBN about it

found this 1


http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/352989-ls-tractor-bucket-flop-problem.html

Just looked through that thread quick after posting, seems like they're having a similar experience to what I am.

 

[Avenger]

Yes, that is exactly right. However, I am not doing a quick bucket dump. My loader does not have that ability. Unless you mean gravity helping it down at the rapid rate. Which is what I suspect. I put the flow restriction valve in place, but it does not seem to help, that is unless I am at full throttle, at which time it is not that bad. I got the Shuttle shift version because I do alot of loader work. And using the shuttle, clutch, and foot throttle makes more since to me while using the FEL. Typically I run the hand throttle up to about 1200rpm and use the foot throttle for work. When dumping into a truck or pile, I am off the foot throttle and dumping. Banging the bucket to get the stuck stuff out is impossible unless I hold pressure for seconds. That sucks.

If the dealer says "thats the way its supposed to be" I dont think he will cover it under warranty.?

Anyway, I am thinking that maybe if I replace the loader control valve with a regen one?? Anyone know of one that is good and will work for my tractor? I dont know, I am almost desperate!

Thank you all for the help!

 

[Supraman0614]

I have an XR4145 as well. I grew up on older Kubotas with the regen valves, and used the foot throttle as you described, so I understand the differences in loader operation you are seeing, as I see it myself. As mentioned above, you can't run these tractors at low RPMs. Not just for hydraulic operation, but you will quickly pollute the DPF with soot. There are many threads on here about that. I'm not sure how the hydraulic pump on the LS is designed versus a Kubota, but my seat-of-the-pants experience is that there is not as much flow at lower RPMs with the LS, which contributes to the floppy bucket issue. A regen valve would help, but you still need the engine speed to run the pump. Try doing your work with the hand throttle at 2000rpm. It isn't as smooth as changing the rpm while your doing your loader work, but I haven't found a more efficient method with this tractor. I've gotten used to it now, so it really isn't a big deal. I'm just as fast as I was on the older Kubota.

 

[Snowman87]

Yes, that is exactly right. However, I am not doing a quick bucket dump. My loader does not have that ability. Unless you mean gravity helping it down at the rapid rate. Which is what I suspect. I put the flow restriction valve in place, but it does not seem to help, that is unless I am at full throttle, at which time it is not that bad. I got the Shuttle shift version because I do alot of loader work. And using the shuttle, clutch, and foot throttle makes more since to me while using the FEL. Typically I run the hand throttle up to about 1200rpm and use the foot throttle for work. When dumping into a truck or pile, I am off the foot throttle and dumping. Banging the bucket to get the stuck stuff out is impossible unless I hold pressure for seconds. That sucks.

If the dealer says "thats the way its supposed to be" I dont think he will cover it under warranty.?

Anyway, I am thinking that maybe if I replace the loader control valve with a regen one?? Anyone know of one that is good and will work for my tractor? I dont know, I am almost desperate!

Thank you all for the help!

Yeah, I just meant dumping it wide open with gravity helping.

 

[RandyinMS]

Hi
I have an XR4150H couple of things, you should work your tractor at, at least 2,000 RPMs. Heck I putz around at 2k work at 2500 to 2700. your tractor will thank you.

Thought I had loader limp issues until I learned to have pressure on the bucket blade, then give it a bit more curl, bam won't float but "engages" the bucket where I want it.

 

[SmurfOperator]

These tractors definitely like higher RPMs but you will still have some flop. I ended up installing a higher flow pump, was a little expensive but well worth it in my opinion. Much better cycle times on the loader and flop is pretty much nonexistent now. Got it from deplorablediesel.com. Tried to find a cheaper option but looks like they are the only company offering a pump upgrade at this time. Pretty easy install, only thing special you need is a pretty big wrench for the banjo bolt and a pressure gauge to verify your relief valve is set correctly. Took me just over an hour for the full job.

 

[PCABE5]

I ended up installing a higher flow pump, was a little expensive but well worth it in my opinion. Much better cycle times on the loader and flop is pretty much nonexistent now. Got it from deplorablediesel.com.

Holy cow that is one expensive pump. Three times the cost of the factory pump and you gain 4cc. Not sure how deplorable diesel can charge that much.

 

[SmurfOperator]

Yea, there was some sticker shock for sure but I wanted a little more flow and couldn't find anybody that had a compatible pump. I went as far as to pull my pump and take it into a couple hydraulic shops, they said it has a non standard shaft and couldn't match anything up. My guess they are having them custom manufactured but aren't ordering them in the kind of volume that would get the price point down. I love the tractor but the loader cycle times were just a little too slow, that extra 4cc made a huge difference. A less expensive alternative would have been nice but I'm satisfied with the results.

 

[PCABE5]

Good to know that you are very happy with it. I'd guess that it is Italian or European spec pump since most of the valves are Italian on the tractor.

Are you able to read any of the manufacturer numbers of the old pump?

 

[SmurfOperator]

Good to know that you are very happy with it. I'd guess that it is Italian or European spec pump since most of the valves are Italian on the tractor.

Are you able to read any of the manufacturer numbers of the old pump?

No other numbers on it. Has the LS part number, serial number and a made in Korea stamp.

 

[PCABE5]

No other numbers on it. Has the LS part number, serial number and a made in Korea stamp.

I looked at mine and Joyang is the manufacturer. They are a pretty big manufacturer with Kioti and LS as two customers.

 

[George2615]

Did you install the adjustable flow restrictor in the correct hose? It shouldn't affect the curl up function at all. Since I installed the restrictor I haven't had the bucket flop condition again. I believe mine is set to position 4 on the adjustment.

 

[SmurfOperator]

I looked at mine and Joyang is the manufacturer. They are a pretty big manufacturer with Kioti and LS as two customers.

I'm not certain exactly what LS models line up to what New Holland models. Does your New Holland Have the Shibaura engine or the LS engine? I'm curious if the LS part number is the same as on your New Holland. If New Holland uses a different part number it may open up more cross reference options.

You seem pretty informed so are probably already aware LS is now using the same engine/hydraulic pump... across several different models and adjusting the computer software to control the engine output. You have the same pump that can be found on an XG3135 powering an XR4155. The 12cc pump is probably just right for the XG and for most people works well enough on the XR3100/XR4100. In my opinion the XR3100s should come stock with a 15cc pump and the XR4100s should come stock with the 16cc pump. Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely happy with the 16cc on my XR3135 however I think the loader now moves just a touch too fast for some less experienced operators.

 

[PCABE5]

I'm not certain exactly what LS models line up to what New Holland models. Does your New Holland Have the Shibaura engine or the LS engine? I'm curious if the LS part number is the same as on your New Holland. If New Holland uses a different part number it may open up more cross reference options.

You seem pretty informed so are probably already aware LS is now using the same engine/hydraulic pump... across several different models and adjusting the computer software to control the engine output. You have the same pump that can be found on an XG3135 powering an XR4155. The 12cc pump is probably just right for the XG and for most people works well enough on the XR3100/XR4100. In my opinion the XR3100s should come stock with a 15cc pump and the XR4100s should come stock with the 16cc pump. Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely happy with the 16cc on my XR3135 however I think the loader now moves just a touch too fast for some less experienced operators.

The 2017 and up Boomers are the current LS XR31xx/XR41xx tractors so it's the LS engine. A Boomer 35/40 is a XR3135/40 and the Boomer 45-55 is the XR4145-55. The only difference I can find is the HVAC controler in the cab is different style than the LS. Loader and subframe is also different. Regarding part numbers they are the same number except New Holland puts MT in front of it. Just my observation is that parts are easier to get from New Holland than LS but that is just one man's opinion.

Coming from the John Deere side the XR3135/40 align fairly well with the JD 3039/46R models and the 8.2 is close to what those use and seems like a common size in that frame size. Now the XR41xx is a larger frame and IMO should have a bigger pump. My only bark is the XR31xx 3pt lift is severely low compared to others in it's class. They should lift 2K 24 inches behind and the same can be said about the XR41xx in that their lift capacity is below the competition. If I were to change pumps I would say 14cc for the XR31xx and 16cc for the XR41xx.

 

[SmurfOperator]

That's good info. Wonder why they used a different HVAC controller of all things.

I've heard a few people have complaints about the hitch lift capacity on the XR3100. The heaviest attachment I run weighs about 800lb it hasn't been a concern for me personally.