How do i size a Aux loader valve? Putting it in series.

[electrycmonk]

now this is wisdom I'm glad i read..... thanks for helping him....and me too from lurker mode. ;>)

 

[Tx Jim]

That would be plain Open Center, not Open Center with Power Beyond.
The advantage of Power Beyond is that in an Open Center system, if the 3 point it trying to raise, the spool valve has to create enough pressure on the output side to raise the 3 point AND do whatever work the spool valve needs to do.
A Open Center system with Power Beyond lets the "spent" fluid from each valve return directly to the tank and does not force it to do whatever other work needs to be done further down the loop.

Aaron Z

My original statement was not all open center hyd systems require PBY.

I know the difference between plain OC valve & OC valve with PBY. After serving as a dealer service manager for 13 yrs I have fairly good knowledge of the different types of hyd systems.

 

[Burns331]

i dont think my Yanmar EX3200 has a Power Beyond Plug on the loader valve. This would be the best design for sure. Otherwise i dont know how else to get this done. Basically interrupt the feed line to the loader valve, and pass everything in series prior to it. I agree i would prefer to have the loader be first in line.

Also what i meant for a loop was run my full pressure line to the back of the tractor, and have a quick connect on it. And then have a line going from the back of the tractor back to the AUX valve or loader valve. Then when im not using a 3pt attachment hat has hydraulic needs, just put a loop between the IN/OUT lines on the back of the tractor to pass hydraulic fluid forward. When using a wood splitter, or backhoe, you remove the loop, and tie your equipment to the IN/OUT hydraulic fittings.

 

[ptsg]

ptsg
Please explain how the hyd systems on older tractors built in the late 40-60's had external control valves added to their existing hyd systems without catastrophic valve failures before PBY came into existent? . I'm referring to hyd systems on tractors such as Farmall H &M & JD 420 that I witnessed the hyd systems operating fine with added remote control valve without the aid of PBY.
Thanks,Jim

My original statement was not all open center hyd systems require PBY.

I know the difference between plain OC valve & OC valve with PBY. After serving as a dealer service manager for 13 yrs I have fairly good knowledge of the different types of hyd systems.

Your statement left the impression that the requirement for PB is related to GPM, which I then said it's not. It has to do with pressure and how the valves are made. There is the risk of cracking valve bodies if the tank port is pressurized.

That being said, my homemade backhoe has the valve for the drive motor feeding the backhoe valve using the tank port, but I do have a external main relief valve for the system. It has been like that for years and so for so good.

And those old tractors would hardly put out any significant GPM or pressure.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

i dont think my Yanmar EX3200 has a Power Beyond Plug on the loader valve. This would be the best design for sure. Otherwise i dont know how else to get this done. Basically interrupt the feed line to the loader valve, and pass everything in series prior to it. I agree i would prefer to have the loader be first in line.

Also what i meant for a loop was run my full pressure line to the back of the tractor, and have a quick connect on it. And then have a line going from the back of the tractor back to the AUX valve or loader valve. Then when im not using a 3pt attachment hat has hydraulic needs, just put a loop between the IN/OUT lines on the back of the tractor to pass hydraulic fluid forward. When using a wood splitter, or backhoe, you remove the loop, and tie your equipment to the IN/OUT hydraulic fittings.

Can you get a diagram of your tractor's system? That will clue you in. If you cannot determine the PB port on your FEL valve or get a PB sleeve; just insert your new valve W/PB ahead of the FEL valve and pipe to the inlet on your FEL valve. Order the new valve with the PB sleeve, you will get an instruction sheet w/it. Don't forget to connect the new valve T port into a new tee in the T (tank) line.

Remember it is hard for us to visualize your system w/o pictures and/or diagrams. One line diagrams tell the story best.

Ron

 

[BukitCase]

"Order the new valve with the PB sleeve"

AND a RELIEF VALVE that dumps back to tank. If necessary, I can probably post a pic or two of the PIECES OF MY OLD HYDRAULIC PUMP -

The pump literally EXPLODED when I plumbed a Samurai cutter in AHEAD of the loader valve (with its built-in relief valve) on my 580B - happened when the cutter met a hardened laurel branch that stalled the cutter. Same thing can easily happen to any OTHER hydraulic add-in, like end of travel on a cylinder while still holding the lever. Remember, the VERY FIRST thing your pump should see is a relief valve.

That was a $450 MISTAKE I wouldn't wish on anybody... Steve

 

[Burns331]

Here is the factory install setup, but i cant find the kit anymore, i think its all been discontinued. Hence i want to make my own.

 

[Burns331]

So im just going to skip putting PYB on. Im just going to go inline from the pump out to the new aux valve and then to the rock valve like the OEM. Which brings me back to what sizing. I think my OEM pump on my tractor is 5.6 GPM. So do i just get a dual stick that flows that much?

 

[Burns331]

This is what someone else did.

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/yanmar-new/358726-ex3200-rear-remotes.html

 

[Burns331]

Heres the valve I think I will use.

Prince MB21BB5C1 Directional Control Valve, Monoblock, Cast Iron, 2 Spool, 4 Ways, 3 Positions, Double Acting Cylinder Spool, Spring Center, Straight Handle, 35 psi, 8 gpm, In/Out: #8 SAE, Work #8 SAE: Hydraulic Directional Control Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

 

[rScotty]

Heres the valve I think I will use.

Prince MB21BB5C1 Directional Control Valve, Monoblock, Cast Iron, 2 Spool, 4 Ways, 3 Positions, Double Acting Cylinder Spool, Spring Center, Straight Handle, 35 psi, 8 gpm, In/Out: #8 SAE, Work #8 SAE: Hydraulic Directional Control Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Looks good. I see that others also have the same popular small tractor loader valve. Here is one similar or maybe even the same that comes with a PBY plug and has a dimensional diagram online so you can see how it will fit up.
2 Spool 8 GPM Prince MB21BB5C1 DA Valve | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
rScotty

 

[ericm979]

The maximum tank port pressure on that valve is 500psi per Prince specs for MB valves. When you lift something significant on the 3pt you will exceed that. That can damage the valve or worse. You need to use the power beyond port to feed the 3pt.

 

[Burns331]

The maximum tank port pressure on that valve is 500psi per Prince specs for MB valves. When you lift something significant on the 3pt you will exceed that. That can damage the valve or worse. You need to use the power beyond port to feed the 3pt.

What does the 3pt have to do with this loop? The tank port line is the one going back to the tank right? Im planning on tie that into the drain for the hydro.

 

[aczlan]

What does the 3pt have to do with this loop? The tank port line is the one going back to the tank right? Im planning on tie that into the drain for the hydro.

The flow goes from the pump, to your loader valve, to your new valve, then to the 3 point hitch valve.
when you lift the 3 point hitch valve and pressurizes everything upstream all the way back up to the pump. As such if it takes 2000 PSI to lift the attachment on the three-point then everything up to the pump has to be able to handle 2000 PSI.
That is where the Open Center Power Beyond is useful because the tank Port does not get pressurized, just the inlet and power beyond ports.

Aaron Z

 

[rScotty]

The flow goes from the pump, to your loader valve, to your new valve, then to the 3 point hitch valve.
when you lift the 3 point hitch valve and pressurizes everything upstream all the way back up to the pump. As such if it takes 2000 PSI to lift the attachment on the three-point then everything up to the pump has to be able to handle 2000 PSI.
That is where the Open Center Power Beyond is useful because the tank Port does not get pressurized, just the inlet and power beyond ports.
Aaron Z

Aaron, which way are we running the plumbing here? Are you and the the OP saying different things?
Back in post #1, the OP wrote, "I want to add a 2 lever aux valve to my EX3200 Yanmar. I know the routing of the system. I will be interrupting the circuit going from the pump to the loader valve."

If he does it that way, I think he will need for the new 2 lever aux valve to have a PBY port to feed the next valve in the series - which he intends to be the original loader valve. I don't see why that wouldn't work. The new valve simply interrupts the flow to the existing loader valve and will add an additional 2 functions.Of couse, the new valve will also need its own return to tank line to service fluid returning when he uses those 2 new functions.

As I see it, the rest of the system including the 3pt hitch will work just as everything did before. The only downside to how the OP wants to plumb the system is that his loader will either not work or will work very slowly whenever he is using one of the new valve's additional 2 functions. But while he is not using the additional functions all should be as before....maybe a little slower due to the slightly reduced flow from friction, but no major difference.

I do not see why plumbing an open center system in the way explained above should add any addional pressure from the 3pt lift.
I do agree that it is critical that the new valve have a PBY port with the proper PBY sleeve in it so that he can feed the old loader valve.
And of course the additional return to the tank line that I mentioned.

What am I missing here?
rScotty

 

[ptsg]

So im just going to skip putting PYB on. Im just going to go inline from the pump out to the new aux valve and then to the rock valve like the OEM. Which brings me back to what sizing. I think my OEM pump on my tractor is 5.6 GPM. So do i just get a dual stick that flows that much?

What am I missing here?
rScotty

This is the post #28. Then he said the tank line would go right to to the tank, which is right, but skipping the PB means he won't have loader, remotes or 3pt. That's why Aaron explained the need for the PB.

 

[aczlan]

This is the post #28. Then he said the tank line would go right to to the tank, which is right, but skipping the PB means he won't have loader, remotes or 3pt. That's why Aaron explained the need for the PB.

Exactly, I mixed up the order of the loader valve and the new valve.
The valve in question has a limit of 500 PSI unless you're using it as a power beyond valve.
As such, if the OP does not use power beyond, when they go to lift the loader or the three-point they have a good chance of exploding the new valve.

Aaron Z

 

[rScotty]

Exactly, I mixed up the order of the loader valve and the new valve.
The valve in question has a limit of 500 PSI unless you're using it as a power beyond valve.
As such, if the OP does not use power beyond, when they go to lift the loader or the three-point they have a good chance of exploding the new valve.
Aaron Z

OK, thanks to Aaron and ptsg for straightening this out. In think that because in my own posts I kept saying that an active PBY port is a necessity, I simply assumed that the OP was going to plumb that way - and maybe he is. Luckily the Prince MB21BB5C1 valve he has chosen normally comes with a PBY port and the optional sleeve. So he should be OK.

And as a lesson to myself, I think it's a good time to learn how to post hand-drawn sketches here on TBN.
rScotty

 

[electrycmonk]

Question folks. I'm not want to hyjack thread, mearly point out a similar unit with similar price and more options.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013WYP1P...olid=22IIJHGGP1VTE&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

As both of our CUT have about the same GPM flow, wouldn't this be an equal option for him as well? Given that it also has extra ports for future add-ons? IT also allows for PBY or switching to a "Closed" system as they advertise it as default "Open" system.

Or is this a bad idea for him overall?

 

[ericm979]

It's common to be able to switch a valve between closed and open system use. But you can't run a closed valve on an open system. Pretty much all modern CUTS are open system. It's cheaper and works well enough.

If you're already making mounts and running hoses you might as well get a valve that has more spools than you think you need now.

If you are not using the PB port and are running all the valve's output out the tank port, you need a valve whose tank port is rated for full system pressure. Because no matter where you put it in the chain there will be at least one valve (the 3pt) after it. When you raise the 3pt ALL the valves in the system see that pressure on their in and PB or tank ports.