Right to repair, Why I don't want a new tractor.

[thompsonmax]

I'll just keep on running and rebuilding my Pre 4 tractors. No issue with me. I'm color blind anyway.

Nice joke :laughing:

 

[MHarryE]

Okay, I download the software, let’s say 5,000,000 lines of code. Where do I start? What do I do?

I have 5 Kubotas, 3 computerized, 2 not. The 2 not run ugly, start hard, need help. The computerized ones are a pleasure to operate - but Kubota demands it go to the dealer for software flash. That really sucks as it’s a $1500 round trip. They want it back to do updates. Why? I have no problem, but it sets a code if I hold my foot on the brake more than 30 seconds while waiting for traffic. How would you like it if your car did that waiting at a traffic light - unless you put it in neutral after setting the parking brake. 4 updates and it still faults out. Just back from dealer, first fault is seat switch problem - see your Kubota dealer. Really, another $1,500 round trip to dealer? Problem since day one - low steer pressure light comes on. Have changed filter twice ( interval is 1,000 hours - I have 653 as of tonight). Tractor was last returned 6 days ago and today that steer pressure light flashed at me again. The tractor runs great, smooth ride, pulls implements 25% faster than my nephews 40 year old Internationals with higher power rating and the IH’s use 50% more fuel, but Kubota’s software engineers really suck. 6 days operation since latest flash and 17 codes logged when I stopped tonight. The good side - none of them mean a thing. I can ignore them and the tractor is outstanding. When I one time did have a stoppage, the code said to call your dealer. The dealer responded that my fuel filters are plugged. They were. Now why didn’t they say that? Why did I need to read the code to the dealer and have him tell me that 4 fuel filters need replacing? It has a 12 inch display that instead said to call dealer. Couldn’t it at least say call dealer because your filters are plugged? Some things are fantastic. Today I wanted to fine tune a hydraulic cylinder. Flow was too high. Display cylinders on screen, select one I wanted to change, revised flow from 100% to 10% and I could control precisely without overshooting.

 

[finn1]

The Navigation system on my Jeep can be updated in my driveway, with zero special tools. My wife did it last time. Similarly, the Dealer upgraded my Ram truck in his driveway with hid tool. He could have sent a technician to my driveway to do the same thing.

Any mobile technician can buy the tools and do the same thing. It will cos him money, but there’s profit to be had, if he looks at where the industry, and basically all industry that deals with technology is headed.

Not sure what technology is missing at Kubota to have that capability.

 

[bnold]

I work for a diagnostic tool company (Ross-Tech, LLC) that makes an aftermarket pc based tool for VAG cars - VW, Audi, SEAT, Skoda, Bentley and Lamborghini. The purported John Deere rep told many things that are true and stretched some things that are not... I'd have to sit and go through it all line by line to state it all. I'd rather leave that for the moment for I don't see a purpose in doing so. The commenters on the video have done the job.

In auto and small truck repair, the reason Massachusetts independent auto repair shops demanded Right to Repair legislation was that the OEs were not permitting the aftermarket repair guys access to the same factory authorized procedures the dealers were using. Aftermarket tools exist for auto and small trucks. That was not the issue. Repair procedures were being controlled and restricted and the independents could not buy them at a reasonable cost.

The OEs were forcing the repair shops to buy the factory tool and pay a large subscription. The aftermarket guys lobbied the Massachusetts legislature and the OEs saw that the lobbyists were getting traction so they made a settlement proposal. It did not give the independents all they wanted. It did not protect the OEs as they wanted. It was a compromise and the industry societies decided to accept the proposal. Many of the independent repairers felt betrayed by their societies.

One of the outcomes was that the OEs had to put their diagnostic software and their procedures up on web sites where the independent could purchase access for a reasonable cost. We'll argue about the definition of reasonable some other day as the costs would not be attractive to an enthusiast wanting to work on their own car but the cost was low enough that the independent shop could afford it.

The OEs agreed to make their diagnostic software work through a universal SAE protocol named J2534. This meant that the independent shop could buy one tool - a J2534 diagnostic interface - and access all OE software off the web. The independent repair shop guy could now work on any brand car/truck he chose.

That software would allow the independent to do all things the dealer technician could do on a car. A module needs to be updated through a flash? Hook up the J2534 and run the flash portion of the OE's software. The programming information flows from the OE computer server farm, through the internet, into the J2534 and finally into the control module memory. Win for all!

That is still in place. But now the OEs are starting a new branch on the tree: the idea that data from the vehicle belongs to the OE not the user. The OEs are sending the data from cars starting around 2016 via GSM chips - cell phone chips - back to mother ship so the dealer can call and tell the owner that he/she is about to have a problem with your xyz car/truck. The independent shops see themselves being cut out again. So they are trying another round of Right to Repair. Stay tuned.

It's a never ending battle and it is about money. Most dealers - I suspect it is true of the farm equip dealers too - do not make enough from sales of the vehicles to keep their doors open. They need service revenue. The OEs know this. The OE knows that sales of vehicles most often happens through dealers. If they can't keep their doors open, then sales will suffer. The OEs choose to protect the dealer service centers.

With new data collection, a new revenue stream has entered the picture. If the OE knows where you go, how you drive, how you spend your hours in a car, they can sell information to advertisers and so on. They are doing precisely that. It will be billions of dollars to the OEs. Making an independent aftermarket shop buy access to their customer's data is another source of revenue.

How does any of this apply to tractors/farm machines? The market is much smaller so where will the income be for a business like mine to develop an affordable diagnostic tool? The Farm Equipment OEs are not going to share information. That then requires the independent tool manufacture to reverse engineer everything... big cost - long development time. When that cost is spread over thousands of machines rather than millions -- and perhaps my numbers are a bit off -- one can see why it is hard to get an independent to make a tool that is cost effective for a farmer.

Having a J2534 like device that would work with all tractor brands and that would allow the use of online software from the manufacturer, that would be a win for all I think. The question is, how much would the Farm Eq OE want to put his software up on the web and allow their customers or independent repair guys to use it? Could it be a cost effective solution?

Last, for the tractor dead in the field needing service, this J2534 idea may not be of any value as many farms may not have internet access in the fields. Even if one used their phone, how good would the data connect be in many fields?

The decision to put all these computers on the machines was made to give the machines more capability and to hold down the cost to manufacture. There is a constant push to improve things. The resultant cost has been all this need for diagnostic tools. We can't go back. We can try to live with simpler machines that do less but then that will also affect the farm's bottom line for it will take longer to do the same amount of work.

I'm not a farmer. I am a sparky engineer having spent my career designing lots of custom machines. My interest in tractors comes from me volunteering to manage 200 acres of land in Virginia for the owner of my company. I do as many of the repairs on our machines as possible and he and I have talked at length about branching our company into making a farm equipment diagnostic tool. We see an end coming for us in the auto world owing to this GSM technology and all data being beamed up to the mother ship. But thus far, we have simple farm machines for what we do - mowing, trail management, driveway management, simple processes.. We're not sure where we could get the info to start a tool for farm equipment. Any one know how many machines are sold a year? How long do you guys keep your machines?

Well, I hope this long post has not been a bore.. I hope some info has been transmitted. I hear your pain gentlemen...

If you want to know about our company, take a look here: Ross-Tech: Home - do note our forum for our users.. our free self created pages of info not commonly found in VAG land called the Wiki.. and so on. We have been at this for 20 years and are recognized as the defacto standard in the aftermarket for VAG repair. We sell to virtually every country of the world to which our government allows us to sell. We know how to make cost effective tools for VAG but note we have not had success with any other OE.. In part it is because we can't keep up with VAG, but also we can't find a starting point with some of the others.

And please, we are not ready to talk about making a tool for farm machinery. We may never be. So please do not flood us with emails about doing so. If you want to talk about this subject, leave me a message here if the forum admins will allow.

Had a VAG com for both of my previous TDI Jetta’s!! Life savers!!

 

[bnold]

Duplicate

 

[saxnbees]

I also had the VAG Com software for my 2000 Jetta TDI. It saved me a lot of money over the years and never had to take the car back to the dealer after I started using it.

 

[bearthebruce]

Update: We continue looking at this matter. It is not a trivial matter and the development will be a huge cost. Those that know VAG-COM/VCDS, the owner of Ross-Tech was frustrated (as many of you are) with his '97 VW GTi. He decided to do something. He made a tool which has become the defacto aftermarket goto tool for VAG diagnostics and repair around the world.

But ask us why we never did any other OE brand... The reason is that it is a daunting task to get there these days.

Even if we were successful making a tool, one thing it would not do is flash modules. Why you ask? The software in the control modules is the intellectual property of the entity that wrote that code. No other party, unless granted a license to do so, would be permitted to transmit the contents of a software controlled module without violating copyright/ownership regulations. It is outright theft to do so. No tool we would create would do that.

The other issue we are seeing is that no one brand stands out as the majority leader in tractors and Ag machines. As a result, which should we pick? Where will the investment receive the return needed?

We have never been about making big money - not our style. But we do have to recover costs. We can't see a tool being of value to you if you have to pay north of a $1000 and yet we are not convinced there would be a large enough market at $1000 each to justify the expense.

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Another thought - Right to Repair on Autos forced the OEs to produce a standard interface that allowed users to buy access to the OEs software on the web. Is there enough clout in the Ag and Tactor communities to get the Tractor OEs to do the same? It's not exactly what I think all want but it might be a solution that could work and be cost effective. The Auto guys all offer their factory tool via the web and the annual fee for use varies from as little as a couple hundred bucks to just under a thousand. Do note, I did say annual fee. You have to pay them every year. Some do sell daily licenses.. buy a day when needed. Again, not the solution wanted but perhaps a solution one could live with.

The online software offered by the OE gives you, the owner of the machine, full access to all information used by the dealer tech to effect repairs. It does allow the repairer to flash modules. I am unaware of any restriction to the user who purchases the right to use the OE tool.

The cost of the connection tools vary and there are several manufacturers for those. The tool is based on the SAE standard J2534.

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The short path to getting the help needed is to get the OE Tractor and Ag community to do what threat of law required the OE Auto companies to offer the aftermarket repair guys in the US. Use Right to Repair to force similar access to the tractor and Ag machine electronics so you can keep your machines running. Force them to give full access to all repair procedures on the machines you own and lease from them. $1500 round trip to the dealer every few weeks seems onerous. It will take politicians to bring the appropriate pressure to get the help needed to be offered. The guys in Massachusetts who ran the Right to Repair were able to get their state government on their side. The US Congressman and Senators also came on board. Societies that represent the repair community came on board. Once they had that traction, the OEs came to the table to talk. No one walked away with exactly what they wanted but a solution was had.

Mind, that solution has worked for about 8 years. With new tech, a new round is about to start. The OEs have now added GSM chips into all models being sold. With these, the vehicle sends all data to the cloud and the OE collects that data. A day is coming when the connection inside the car will be eliminated. All diagnostic data will be sent by the cellular phone system to the mothership. OE says the data is theirs. Owners of the cars are saying, "Hold on. The car belongs to me. The data is mine." The repair guy is saying, "This is another attempt by the OE to steal my customer and lock me out." There is a movement started called Right to Repair II. By the way, that data they plan to collect is a big big revenue stream for the OEs. They will sell that data to advertisers, insurance companies and a host of others who want access to it. I am guessing that what happens in the auto industry, leads the way for what happens in the Ag Tractor industry.

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Our 2005 Massey Ferguson 1533 has no electronics in it. We are learning to maintain it the old fashion way and the two old farts doing the work are loving the move away from our computer screens and doing things the way we did when we were kids: take it apart and see how it works. We are both engineers. We should be able to figure things out right? You guys with all your experience are teaching us "kids" a bunch. We are avidly reading and hopefully learning from you. Thanks for the discussions found here. We'll also try to contribute where we can.

 

[JasperFrank]

I've been looking for a new small garden tractor, and looked at JD and Cub Cadette. Seeing what JD is doing, makes JD a non starter. Whats up with that 30 second oil change proprietary oil/filter/oil change THAT COSTS $40. So Hey JD, I bought something else, just because you don't let people fix things. If you go out of business, its your OWN fault.

 

[stivemorgan]

I've been looking for a new small garden tractor, and looked at JD and Cub Cadette. Seeing what JD is doing, makes JD a non starter. Whats up with that 30 second oil change proprietary oil/filter/oil change THAT COSTS $40. So Hey JD, I bought something else, just because you don't let people fix things. If you go out of business, its your OWN fault.

Totally agree with you. Thanks for your reply.

 

[MultiMow]

The problem between right to repair and tractors, is federal emissions regulations. If the manufacturers provide a means of altering the fuel/boost controls in such a manner that exceeds emissions constraints, they are subject to HUGE fines. As such, they have no alternative but to restrict access.