I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase)

   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #11  
May I suggest that a study of 3 phase Wye (Y) vs 3 phase Delta would put you in a better understanding.

Wye configuration allows easily balanced loads for both 220 (208) a and 110 single phase needs, as well as full 3 phase output.

Delta configurations allow options as well, (vis "corner ground" etc.

It would be a requirement to KNOW the nature of the generated source to determine if the single phase power draw would be right for you.

"Computer grade" power may require an inverter as a buffer between any engine driven source and the electronics. Your freezer won't care at all. ;-)...
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #12  
Most modern switching supples are pretty forgiving. Until they fail! DC to light frequency input, very wide voltage range. Many servers have redundant PSUs.

But yes, you need something between power loss and generator power. Unless you don't care about uninterupted service.

NOTE: My Telecom Inverter will not accept the power of my Kubota/Onan 7.5 KW Generator, so I can't recharge my batteries using that. The frquency isn't bang on. Something to keep in mind.
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #13  
This sites does a good job explaining.

In the United States, utility companies are required to provide a split-phase 240V feed to your house. This consists of two legs of 120VAC that are 180 degrees out of phase with one another.

Screenshot_20200820-225536_Chrome.jpg
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase)
  • Thread Starter
#14  
This sites does a good job explaining.

In the United States, utility companies are required to provide a split-phase 240V feed to your house. This consists of two legs of 120VAC that are 180 degrees out of phase with one another.

View attachment 666934

I knew got that from somewhere, but I'm ready to believe anything.

I wish i still had my oscope. I should shop for another some day.

My computer systems all have pure sine wave UPS's that clean/condition the power before passing it into the servers.
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #15  
I knew got that from somewhere, but I'm ready to believe anything.

I wish i still had my oscope. I should shop for another some day.

My computer systems all have pure sine wave UPS's that clean/condition the power before passing it into the servers.

You should. If you really want to understand this stuff. Playing with a scope is how I finally wrapped my head around single phase, 3 phase, and "how many degrees out of phase."

(Assuming an isolated scope) put one probe across L1 and L2 of of a 3phase supply, observe sine wave. Put 2nd probe across L2 & L3, observe 2nd sine wave, 120 degrees out of phase from the first. Put 3rd probe across L3 & L1, observe 3rd sine wave, 120 degrees ahead of L2-L3 and 120 degrees behind L1-L2. 3 phases. 120 degrees out of phase from each other.

Now approach a single phase supply. Place probe across L1-L2, observe sine wave. Now take second probe and put it... where? Across L2-L1? That's silly. It's obviously the same thing as L1-L2, but reversed! There's only one phase. And it isn't any amount of degrees from anything, because there's no other phases to reference it against. Sure, you can reference to ground/neutral, but that's not a phase, it's a center tap of the one (single) phase of supply. It's a mind trap. Ground/neutral doesn't count.

There is such thing as "two phase" but it's very rare and consists of 4 wires. Unless you live in a 100+ y/o industrial facility in some isolated part of Michigan, youve never seen it and probably never will. It's two separate single phase supplies, 90 degrees out of phase from each other.

So why all these phases and degrees? Imagine riding a bicycle with only one leg. You tape your one foot to the pedal, and as long as someone gives you a push to get started, you can can keep going. That's single phase, and that's why single phase motors (mostly) require starting capacitors - the push from behind to get them started. Now imagine you have 3 legs and 3 pedals. Never mind the absurdity or the breach of physics, you could take off from any position of the pedals or the legs any time of day or night, covid or not. That's why 3 phase motors are better. One of the reasons. The 197 machines in Michigan using 2-phase power can do the same. They're a dude with 2 legs on a bike with 2 pedals, but their pedals are 90 degrees apart. So they can ride, but it's goofy and unnatural looking, and that's why the idea didn't spread outside of a few little isolated pockets of early industry.

Know that you do not have 2 phase.
Know that you have single phase with 2 legs and a neutral. For the bike analogy you can consider the neutral a crotch or a knee i suppose. Maybe an ankle.
Know that your single phase is not any amount of degrees out of phase with anything, and speaking of degrees is a waste of breath.
Know that your best bet is a single phase generator, but if you can't find that, look into a 12-wire 3 phase generator. Most of the time with those you can wire them for single phase with a derating factor.

Most importantly, Know that your method of turning off your main supply breaker and turning on your generator is almost assuredly against local ordinance, national electrical code, and safe practice. You need a transfer switch, manual or automatic, which 100% eliminates any possibility whatsoever of sending power back up into the grid during an outage.
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #16  
I have been in electronics on and off since the mid 70s. I bought a scope about twenty years ago. I have never plugged it in! lol
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #17  
For average home you buy a 4 wire dedicated single phase alternator with digital voltage regulator. Mecc-Alte site will explain the different types available. You can get any size diesel gensets. The one I spec'ed for friend was small turbo charge perkins engine, 36kva mecc-alte 4 wire full size alternator, in a level 2 aluminum sound enclosure on a 60 gallon tank, run by deep sea 7200 line monitor with 200 generac ATS. There is no reason these days to buy a 12 wire head if you will never need 3 phase. Just more cost for more windings.ATS2.jpgOutside1.jpg
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #18  
I didn't know about 2 phase until a couple years ago. Met someone from Philly that informed me older parts of the city especially Gov buildings were still wired for 2 phase. New installations are usually modern conventional. Since 2 phase public power generation no longer exists transformers are used to produce.
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #19  
10kw @110vac, 5kw @220vac, 50a 220v breaker. I run a server rack with many computers and servers in the basement for work, wife likes ac and hot water. The goal is minimal interruption during power outages. Working from home, kids are attending virtual school this year. We lose power regularly.

I'd rather not tie up a tractor, I'd like a dedicated machine. I'll buy/build whatever i need within reason, just want to learn what I need to do it right.

Id suggest buying two 10kW generators and splitting your circuit and have the ability to cross feed. Put your well pump, fridge, basic lighting one one generator as the need to have. Put the energy hog electric water heater, AC on the second genny. When the primary genny blows up you now have a backup. AC and hot water is nice to have, intermittent use, and low priority.

If hot water is critical to you then get an LPG on demand water heater and power it up only when you need it. Put the computers on battery BU.
 
   / I need help understanding AC electricity and generators (1/3 phase) #20  
The best way I can think of to explain this is that power distributed throughout the country is 3 phase. To deliver the power to a house one of these phases is tapped to run a line to the house (hence the term single phase). The transformer the house is connected to puts out 240v. However, it is a center tapped transformer, so between the center tap and either end is 120v. You have both ends and the center tap (plus ground) being run to your main breaker panel. Generators will have to emulate this.

Grounding electrical systems is a whole course by itself.
 

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