Welder Question

[Gary Fowler]

I have a Craftsman 140 amp Mig welder that I have used for years and it does a good job on 3/16" or less steel.

I am needing to weld some plus 3/8" steel however it is not often.

I would like a 220 volt Mig welder, but they are expensive for something that I don't use often.
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I have thought about getting a Arc (stick) welder.

Sometimes older ones can be found used, but I saw this new inverter welder a Hobart Stickmate 160i Dual Voltage DC Arc Welder Inverter, 120/240Volt, 20?60 Amp Output, Model# 160
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How good are these inverter stick welders and will I see enough of a jump in capability to weld 3/8" steel in a single pass?

I would never try to weld 3/8 thick material in one pass regardless of the power of the machine. If you mean 3/8" fillet weld, possibly but never try to carry that much metal on a 3/8" bevelled joint using a buttweld technique. There is too much possibility of slag entrapment and lack of fusion when doing that even with a 200 amp machine. Getting enough amps to fill a bevel in one pass would seriously overheat the base metals.
Any 140 amp MIG or stick machine should weld even 1" thick material when using multi-pass technique. I could certainly do it with my Titanium 125 flux core machine with .035 wire. I have a Vulcan 220 OmniPro machine also and a Miller 250 Dialarc AC/DC machine, but the little 125 can weld just about anything I need to weld using multiple passes and I have welded with it for over 30 minutes straight and never had it overheat.

 

[dieselscout80]

I would never try to weld 3/8 thick material in one pass regardless of the power of the machine. If you mean 3/8" fillet weld, possibly but never try to carry that much metal on a 3/8" bevelled joint using a buttweld technique. There is too much possibility of slag entrapment and lack of fusion when doing that even with a 200 amp machine. Getting enough amps to fill a bevel in one pass would seriously overheat the base metals.
Any 140 amp MIG or stick machine should weld even 1" thick material when using multi-pass technique. I could certainly do it with my Titanium 125 flux core machine with .035 wire. I have a Vulcan 220 OmniPro machine also and a Miller 250 Dialarc AC/DC machine, but the little 125 can weld just about anything I need to weld using multiple passes and I have welded with it for over 30 minutes straight and never had it overheat.

Interesting I have hit the thermal shutdown on my welder many times over the years (i got in 2001).

I do bevel when welding thick steel, but I see a lack of penetration when welding thick stuff.

 

[Sberry]

When I was considering a welder, the reviews I read were pretty much in agreement that the inverters models were
(a) overpriced
(b) underpowered

Which isn't to say an inverter model won't do it for you assuming you don't have issues with the duty cycle. For me with my lack of welding skills, I like having the necessary current to know that I'm getting good weld penetration. (Plus I secretly delight at the sheer power of electricity to liquefy metal instantly ) Multiple passes and other things for me is just another way for me to screw up.

I have a Hobart Stickmate LX235 which runs both AC and DC (the AC is nice for tight corners with blowback problems and when I need just a bit more current, mostly I use DC). I haven't had any issues welding anything I wanted to weld, though my welding skills are pathetic.

I think the welder was ~$550 when I bought it and I notice Hobart doesn't even list this model any more, or indeed any stick welder more powerful than the 160i. So clearly my buying research is dated.

The significant hidden cost was the electrician to install the 240v wiring/jack, which cost me like $750, but that's partly because I hired a bad electrician, live and learn.

Anyway, good luck. If you go with the 240v installation it opens up a lot of options for you, but that one-time cost for wiring is a pain, and of course you lose the sheer portability of an inverter welder, as it forces you to bring the work to the welder instead of the welder to the work. But are you really going to haul around the welder and all the assorted paraphernalia? There's also potential safety issues. For example, I wouldn't want to be using AC in damp ground, I like having a dry safe floor under my feet when welding.

If I had to do the electrical work again, I might consider a second circuit and appropriate wiring for a high amperage space heater, since I don't like to weld in my freezing garage in winter.

There is a lot in this thread, some generalization. The inverters do not lack power. The new 200 Stickmate is a 200 dc machine on the same current the old ones had at 125 or 150. I am not sure how bad it could be abused but its got more power and makes it % less load as it applies to duty for the same electrodes. It would let a guy run some 5/32 lo hy,,, which is the main reason anyone might really want a Dial or Ideal 250 and it does it from standard 50 circuit.
The 160 inverters are revolutionary for use on 120V. They run 3/32 lo hy and 1/8 6011 well from 20A, even with quite long cords. Bump to 240 in the shop and they run 1/8 lo hy well and beyond that 99% for most people is well suffecient and at 120 it does a lot of work especially with some planning and journeyman operators. There is a lot of professional work in the world done 3/32 7018. I did a site customer repair a while back, mostly fab and in a morning had to run about 4 extra rods for a second vert pass 6 or 8 inches long, added about 5 minutes and didnt have to listen for engine run for 2 hours for 15 minutes weld.
Low current input can pay off, a 160 is rated wide open with room to spare on 30A circuits and a 12 cord or wire and work long ways on a 12 at 240. I know a couple internet guys got 30A service in a spec built house or garage or shed and can get by as a hobby concern, beats tearing up concrete.
I normally run 10 for welders, it fits the terminations so much better than 12 some allow, it also keeps V droop to a unnoticeable level with most 50A machines and the only ones ever need a bigger wire are the 252 class migs but they run on 10/50 fine 035 c25.
If I was stasrting with none today would have to give the first chance to the Everlast class 160, I dont care about tig but the 120V is revolutionary,,, sooooooooooooooooooo convenient. It will do the same work as the dc buzzer, not sure how hard it could be ran but got a bud says they replace the Max with 5 of them and they still working daily despite them kicking the **** out of them from hired help.

 

[workinonit]

There's a Millermatic 252 on CL near me. Ad says only one reel of wire has been run through it. Is $2500 a decent price?

Thanks,

That sounds high but it's been quite a few years since I bought my 251. I want to say I paid around $1800 for mine. But I've slept since then so there's that.

 

[FTG-05]

***Gone!***

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

When I was considering a welder, the reviews I read were pretty much in agreement that the inverters models were
(a) overpriced
(b) underpowered

Which isn't to say an inverter model won't do it for you assuming you don't have issues with the duty cycle. For me with my lack of welding skills, I like having the necessary current to know that I'm getting good weld penetration. (Plus I secretly delight at the sheer power of electricity to liquefy metal instantly ) Multiple passes and other things for me is just another way for me to screw up.

I have a Hobart Stickmate LX235 which runs both AC and DC (the AC is nice for tight corners with blowback problems and when I need just a bit more current, mostly I use DC). I haven't had any issues welding anything I wanted to weld, though my welding skills are pathetic.

I think the welder was ~$550 when I bought it and I notice Hobart doesn't even list this model any more, or indeed any stick welder more powerful than the 160i. So clearly my buying research is dated.

The significant hidden cost was the electrician to install the 240v wiring/jack, which cost me like $750, but that's partly because I hired a bad electrician, live and learn.

Anyway, good luck. If you go with the 240v installation it opens up a lot of options for you, but that one-time cost for wiring is a pain, and of course you lose the sheer portability of an inverter welder, as it forces you to bring the work to the welder instead of the welder to the work. But are you really going to haul around the welder and all the assorted paraphernalia? There's also potential safety issues. For example, I wouldn't want to be using AC in damp ground, I like having a dry safe floor under my feet when welding.

If I had to do the electrical work again, I might consider a second circuit and appropriate wiring for a high amperage space heater, since I don't like to weld in my freezing garage in winter.

Respectfully I think you were a victim of misinformation. Inverters are actually more powerful, because of the way the generate and rectify the arc. You get a "hotter" arc due to the fact there is more constant "on" time and less space between the breaks in the DC current compared to transformers. You also have the benefit of arc force control, which compensates for arc voltage loss by increasing amperage.

As far as over priced...We've long offered inverters at HALF the price of equivalent transformer machines. Yes at one time a couple of decades ago, inverters were more expensive, or equally expensive, but they've never been underpowered, unless they were figuring amps a different way, not. Honestly they are cheaper to build. You can buy a 200 Amp Power Arc for under 400.00 that welds circles around the Stickmate. Replaced a many stickmate with them. Only complaint I have really gotten is ours run a little "hot" in comparison.

Yes small stick inverters are still DC only. No AC. But AC came into existence because it was a cheaper way to build a stick welder. The issue about arc blow is a red herring. It really isn't an issue in most cases...and if and when it becomes an issue, there are plenty of workarounds that can be tried. DC is still universally the preferred stick welding method.
, qui
As far as multi-pass? Wait...what? Really? Now, multi=pass is less ways to screw up. Easier to make better welds. Less heat. Making a single pass bead on 1/2" plate is a guaranteed way to screw things up. Again, I think you have been a victim of misinformation. Multi-pass beads are stronger, less chance of weld failure, lower discontinuities, and much more controllable.

 

[dieselscout80]

Respectfully I think you were a victim of misinformation. Inverters are actually more powerful, because of the way the generate and rectify the arc. You get a "hotter" arc due to the fact there is more constant "on" time and less space between the breaks in the DC current compared to transformers. You also have the benefit of arc force control, which compensates for arc voltage loss by increasing amperage.

As far as over priced...We've long offered inverters at HALF the price of equivalent transformer machines. Yes at one time a couple of decades ago, inverters were more expensive, or equally expensive, but they've never been underpowered, unless they were figuring amps a different way, not. Honestly they are cheaper to build. You can buy a 200 Amp Power Arc for under 400.00 that welds circles around the Stickmate. Replaced a many stickmate with them. Only complaint I have really gotten is ours run a little "hot" in comparison.

Yes small stick inverters are still DC only. No AC. But AC came into existence because it was a cheaper way to build a stick welder. The issue about arc blow is a red herring. It really isn't an issue in most cases...and if and when it becomes an issue, there are plenty of workarounds that can be tried. DC is still universally the preferred stick welding method.
, qui
As far as multi-pass? Wait...what? Really? Now, multi=pass is less ways to screw up. Easier to make better welds. Less heat. Making a single pass bead on 1/2" plate is a guaranteed way to screw things up. Again, I think you have been a victim of misinformation. Multi-pass beads are stronger, less chance of weld failure, lower discontinuities, and much more controllable.

Mark, please review my original post that started this thread and make a recommendation.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

My recommendation is to look at our Power i-MIG 230i. Excellent MIG welder. Plus you get a top notch 170 amp stick welder.

But if you aren't given to that kind of budget, then look at our Power i-MIG 200. Similar in price to the MIG Hobart you are looking at, but with more features, better duty cycle, and stick welding capability. Plus instead of a theoretical 210 amps at what?....5% duty cycle???....you get a real 200 amps at 35% duty cycle. 160 amps for stick that will weld every bit as good, if not quite a bit better as the hobart you are looking at in a stick inverter. And 5 year warranty on top of that which covers the unit itself in parts and labor.

MIG Welder, Power i-MIG 2 - Everlast Generators

 

[dieselscout80]

My recommendation is to look at our Power i-MIG 230i. Excellent MIG welder. Plus you get a top notch 170 amp stick welder.

But if you aren't given to that kind of budget, then look at our Power i-MIG 200. Similar in price to the MIG Hobart you are looking at, but with more features, better duty cycle, and stick welding capability. Plus instead of a theoretical 210 amps at what?....5% duty cycle???....you get a real 200 amps at 35% duty cycle. 160 amps for stick that will weld every bit as good, if not quite a bit better as the hobart you are looking at in a stick inverter. And 5 year warranty on top of that which covers the unit itself in parts and labor.

MIG Welder, Power i-MIG 2 - Everlast Generators

Thanks

 

[Bullwinkle123]

Respectfully I think you were a victim of misinformation. Inverters are actually more powerful, because of the way the generate and rectify the arc. You get a "hotter" arc due to the fact there is more constant "on" time and less space between the breaks in the DC current compared to transformers. You also have the benefit of arc force control, which compensates for arc voltage loss by increasing amperage.

As far as over priced...We've long offered inverters at HALF the price of equivalent transformer machines. Yes at one time a couple of decades ago, inverters were more expensive, or equally expensive, but they've never been underpowered, unless they were figuring amps a different way, not. Honestly they are cheaper to build. You can buy a 200 Amp Power Arc for under 400.00 that welds circles around the Stickmate. Replaced a many stickmate with them. Only complaint I have really gotten is ours run a little "hot" in comparison.

Yes small stick inverters are still DC only. No AC. But AC came into existence because it was a cheaper way to build a stick welder. The issue about arc blow is a red herring. It really isn't an issue in most cases...and if and when it becomes an issue, there are plenty of workarounds that can be tried. DC is still universally the preferred stick welding method.
, qui
As far as multi-pass? Wait...what? Really? Now, multi=pass is less ways to screw up. Easier to make better welds. Less heat. Making a single pass bead on 1/2" plate is a guaranteed way to screw things up. Again, I think you have been a victim of misinformation. Multi-pass beads are stronger, less chance of weld failure, lower discontinuities, and much more controllable.

You may be right about all of the above. When it comes to welding I'm a complete rube. Just two points:

1. On the AC and blowback thing. Perhaps it's in my imagination, but when I'm trying to weld in corners I do feel that I experience less blowback with AC than DC. How often people weld in corners is going to depend on what kinds of welding projects you undertake.
2. When I bought my welder, which was more than a few years ago as I mentioned, inverter models were twice the price of non-inverter models, and, IIRC, less capable. Perhaps I simply don't remember correctly, perhaps things have changed since then. Either way it would appear my concern doesn't apply now.

Otherwise, no doubt your responses are far more timely and accurate, so hopefully the OP finds what they need.