Do I need synthetic oil?
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Sawyer Rob
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Grumpycat
Veteran Member
There are no performance specifications over and above refined that an oil must meet to be sold as synthetic.
In paying more for a synthetic motor oil you are trusting the manufacturer to give you something better than a refined oil.
There are industry standard performance specifications for which nothing but a synthetically manufactured oil has met. Not all synthetically manufactured oils meet those specifications. There are no honest specifications which require an oil to be synthetically manufactured.
Subaru is an example of a dishonest "synthetic" requirement. Their current 3.6L boxer 6 has problems with Subaru branded synthetic motor oil so it is only to use refined while all the other engines are only to use synthetic.
In paying more for a synthetic motor oil you are trusting the manufacturer to give you something better than a refined oil.
There are industry standard performance specifications for which nothing but a synthetically manufactured oil has met. Not all synthetically manufactured oils meet those specifications. There are no honest specifications which require an oil to be synthetically manufactured.
Subaru is an example of a dishonest "synthetic" requirement. Their current 3.6L boxer 6 has problems with Subaru branded synthetic motor oil so it is only to use refined while all the other engines are only to use synthetic.
Bearsixty7
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Read for yourself why reputable synthetic oils are superior and how it may benefit you here Synthetic versus Conventional - AMSOIL
Conventional oils do break down and will start to leave sludge deposits, most conventional oils are only good for 6-12 months. Even most Amsoil oils recommend changing at least once a year.
Conventional oils do break down and will start to leave sludge deposits, most conventional oils are only good for 6-12 months. Even most Amsoil oils recommend changing at least once a year.
Grumpycat
Veteran Member
Once again, "In paying more for a synthetic motor oil you are trusting the manufacturer to give you something better than a refined oil." You are confusing one manufacturer's marketing claims of their product with a generic all-encompassing "all oils synthetically manufactured must be this way." Marketing likes your imagination to work that way. That is the core behind what marketing does.
A superior motor oil can be manufactured with synthetic processes but the use of synthetic processes does not ensure a superior motor oil.
There are no enhanced performance standards for "break down and leave sludge deposits" for which a synthetic oil must meet to be sold as synthetic. Your statement is a total fabrication. Oils do not "break down and leave sludge". Sludge deposits are a function of the detergent which is an additive. And all the additives are synthetic, even in refined oil, its just that marketing didn't think to call them synthetic before the word caught on. Then calling the additives synthetic would diminish the marketing power of the word for commanding a higher price for "synthetic" base oil.
As for "sludge", oil does not create sludge. Sludge comes from combustion byproducts in blow-by. Detergent additives determine how much the oil can carry in suspension before it starts falling out. No doubt many manufacturers put more detergent in their higher priced oils. Once Upon A Time Amsoil's ill-fated Lifetime Oil Change featured non-detergent "lifetime" oil. As promised it looked like honey right up to the moment your engine seized from sludge deposits that formed on cooler surfaces of the engine as they were too small to be caught in the oil filter. Inconceivable but a premium synthetic motor oil failed utterly because its designers didn't account for everything in the application. No matter how a product is manufactured it is no better than its designer's understanding of your problem.
Mobil-1 goofed making an aviation motor oil. Thought they knew everything so they adjusted their automotive products, rebranded, filed papers with the FAA, and started selling their premium reputation to the private sport pilot market. Then engines started failing. Mobil-1 forgot to account for leaded gasoline. Everybody knew how to neutralize lead in combustion blow-by, even Mobil's refined aviation oil, but Mobil-1's team forgot. Today there is no Aviation Mobil-1. Nobody would buy it if there was.
In recent years Mobil-1 goofed reformulating their 15W-50 automotive oil. It had a lot of zinc which is a last-chance protection against metal-on-metal. EPA doesn't like zinc getting in the combustion chamber so 5W-30 has little or none and newer S category (gasoline engine) have less and less. So some genius decided to make the 15W-50 viscosity be a version of their 5W-30. Before long camshafts were failing in high lift hotrods. Especially on cold start these engines required a coating of zinc to protect the cam lobes and lifters before fresh oil arrived. Would be better if the engines were properly designed so as not to rely on oil additives (roller lifters would do) but the additives were there so nobody realized the potential problem. And once again the infallible "synthetic" failed because it wasn't correctly designed for the application.
I do not buy synthetic motor oil. I do buy oil based on trust and reputation of the manufacturer and most of that oil is synthetically manufactured. There is a significant difference I hope you come to understand. You wouldn't buy anyone's orange tractor based on Kubota's reputation for making orange tractors, so why would you buy oil which is synthetic because someone else's oil has a superior reputation and is also synthetically manufactured?
Bears repeating: A superior motor oil can be manufactured with synthetic processes but the use of synthetic processes does not ensure a superior motor oil.
Bearsixty7
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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Conventional oil with or without additives will break down and become a sludge, additives just delay the process.
Amsoil has been the leader in synthetic oils for decades, no one else has done more testing, investment and advancement of synthetic oils. Me and a couple of other friends did a lot of research many years ago on synthetic oils available. Of all the tests I have seen conducted by Amsoil and other independent labs, Amsoil is always in the top 3.
I have used Amsoil for a few decades now and have been very impressed with it's performance as have others that I personally know. I do trust Amsoil products.
It may not be for everyone, But I believe and the tests support it, Amsoil is the best oil out there.
dodge man
Super Star Member
I have done some reading on oil over the years but I am no expert. It痴 been a couple of years ago but there was a publication listing oils that did not meet minimum specifications. There was actually a lot of them and they listed why, for example it didn稚 meet viscosity. None on the list was a major manufacturers oil. They must have been regional because I never heard of any of them. So my point is, if you buy a name brand oil, conventional or synthetic you are probably getting a fair to good product.
I have also read a lot about synthetic oil. There was some good info out there but what I read was several years ago. Some of the high end oils did well, such as Amsoil. The problem is they change their blend all the time so old info probably is no longer valid. The high end oils, Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple were often good but sometimes another brand might have been better in a particular application. I was on the Amsoil bandwagon for several years but came to the conclusion it wasn稚 worth the extra money. In my cars I have switched to Castrols synthetic but am not loyal to that. I change the oil at least once a year or go by the percent oil meter in the cars now.
My opinion is buy what ever makes you feel good. Fron what I have read if it痴 a name brand oil, you are good to go.
I have also read a lot about synthetic oil. There was some good info out there but what I read was several years ago. Some of the high end oils did well, such as Amsoil. The problem is they change their blend all the time so old info probably is no longer valid. The high end oils, Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple were often good but sometimes another brand might have been better in a particular application. I was on the Amsoil bandwagon for several years but came to the conclusion it wasn稚 worth the extra money. In my cars I have switched to Castrols synthetic but am not loyal to that. I change the oil at least once a year or go by the percent oil meter in the cars now.
My opinion is buy what ever makes you feel good. Fron what I have read if it痴 a name brand oil, you are good to go.
DMW
Platinum Member
Completely unscientific, just two guys talking about oil, and their experiences.
Synthetic Oil Controversy Explained... - YouTube
Synthetic Oil Controversy Explained... - YouTube
RalphVa
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I dealt with solvent refined oil base stocks in my 31 years as a chemical engineer for Exxon. Was privy to research that our Canadian arm did for us. All their research showed that synthetic was better. I was glad that after I retired they merged with Mobil; so I could use Mobil 1 with a good conscience.
Best way to get oil to that upper end is to use 0wxx oil. Our Canadian guys showed this by putting a Dodge 4 cylinder engine in a -40 C/F room and started with, filming a transparent overhead valve cover, using various oils. The only oil that failed to smoke the cover significantly was 0wxx synthetic.
I found this out even at higher temps with a VW Cabrio with hydraulic lifters. Apparently, one or two of the lifters would drain down during shutdown. The ONLY oil that did not result in significant pounding of those lifters (due to lack of oil) was 0w30. Should have converted to 0w20 as it was in much more supply than 0w30. Now, 0w20 is what I use in all my water cooled gasoline engines. Use 5w30 VW TDI oils in the 2 diesels.
Ralph
Best way to get oil to that upper end is to use 0wxx oil. Our Canadian guys showed this by putting a Dodge 4 cylinder engine in a -40 C/F room and started with, filming a transparent overhead valve cover, using various oils. The only oil that failed to smoke the cover significantly was 0wxx synthetic.
I found this out even at higher temps with a VW Cabrio with hydraulic lifters. Apparently, one or two of the lifters would drain down during shutdown. The ONLY oil that did not result in significant pounding of those lifters (due to lack of oil) was 0w30. Should have converted to 0w20 as it was in much more supply than 0w30. Now, 0w20 is what I use in all my water cooled gasoline engines. Use 5w30 VW TDI oils in the 2 diesels.
Ralph
RalphVa
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