Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac

   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #61  
Your welder has no "common" wire, and the ground can also be disconnected and the welder will work just fine. You just need the two phases where the sine wave is at a peak on the one phase and the sine wave is at a negative peak on the other phase at any instant in time. The reason for the ground wire on your welder is so if the welder "transformer" should short to the case which is grounded, the breaker would trip. If you didn't have the ground wire connected, the case could become "hot" and could knock the heck out of your if you touched it. But all you need to weld is the two phases and ZERO current flows in the green wire. Again there is NO common needed for most 240v devices, what our supply is, but it's there to tap 120v from either leg.

Fixed it for ya. Yeah, it's words with multiple meanings/uses that gets folks confused, as usual.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #62  
I think terminology is what is confusing reading some of these post.

I always referred to individual legs of electricity for incoming power. Two separate legs create single phase 220v power. One leg to neutral or a ground will provide 110v. Three separate legs create three phase.

Often in 220v control circuits one leg is referred to common and the other as signal. All the commons tie together in the circuit.

Maybe I have been wrong all these years but I usually can troubleshoot and fix most electrical issues. :confused3:

Let me ask a series of questions and you answer them.

If you as a person touch the ground connection in the breaker box with your wet finger are you energized?

If you as a person touch the neutral connection in the breaker box with your wet finger are you energized?

If you as a person touch one of the screws of a 240 volt breaker with your wet finder are you energized?

If you as a person touch the other screw of the 240 volt breaker with your wet finger are you energized?

Answers. No, No, Yes, Yes.

So please tell me on any 240 volt circuit which of the two screws is the common and which is the energized? Answer there is NO common and there never was on a 240 volt circuit. BOTH of the legs are energized. They are simply TWO distinct phases. You can be badly shocked if you touch either one and you are energized with either one. You will only be energized to 120 volts respective to ground if you only touch either one of the screws. You will be energized to 240 volts if you touch them both at the same time and it does not matter if you are grounded or NOT. If you take two fingers and touch both screws while you are standing on a rubber mat, you will be badly shocked and burned. You are liable to have finger damage at the least. If you are still standing on that rubber mat and you only touch one screw you will still be energized to 120 volts BUT you won't feel a thing. If you step off of that rubber mat onto a damp concrete floor while barefooted, you WILL feel it. Just how bad you feel it depends on a lot of factors like skin resistance and how damp that concrete floor actually is.

So to recap, across the TWO phases of standard household delivery in most areas anywhere from 220 to more likely 240 volts is developed, and if any part of your body touches both of those phases at the same time you are going to know it. Whether you touch ground or neutral has NO bearing on your getting the hedoublell knocked out of your and possible serious burns and cooked meat to boot. Touching a single phase of this service as long as your are not touching ground will do nothing to you but energize you and you will feel nothing and have no idea you are even energized. There is absolutely no harm in touching a single phase of electrical service even up to several thousand volts as long as you stay with that phase and do not touch any other phase or do not touch ground. At several thousands of volts there will be some corona effects noticed especially around your eyes where ions are bleeding off into the air. But you won't feel a thing at 120 volts.

If you remember nothing else if you are ever energized, remember this: Stay with your phase. Don't touch another phase and don't touch ground. Think of a bird on a high voltage power line. He is energized to the potential of that power line. But he stays with that phase, and doesn't touch another. If he does, he is smoke and feathers. Or a squirrel on a power line. No problem as long as he stays with that phase. Getting on or off of that phase is where the danger is.

Why do some 240 volt appliances have 4 wires you ask? Good question. Here is why. The green wire goes to the case of the appliance for safety ground so that if something happens to one of the phases of the power that makes it touch in some way to the case, we don't want that case to become energized and then have a person touch that case and touch a real ground like possibly plumbing or some other grounded appliance and become energized. We want that energized leg to draw massive current when it touches the appliance case so that the fuse or break will trip out. Safety grounding for the appliance case.

Now for the two different phases of the "legs" of the power that does the work in that appliance. And that leave the other wire. That wire is the neutral wire. What is its purpose you ask? My welder doesn't have a neutral wire, (most don't anyway), why do I need it here? And besides that in many locales the neutral wire and the ground wire are tied together back at the box anyway. What in heck do I need this 4th wire the neutral wire for? You need it if you have something in the appliance that needs to run on 120 volts. For instance maybe a fan or timer motor that needs 120 volts instead of 240 volts. This is the method to use a single phase of the service and run it against the neutral wire. This will provide the 120 volts that the motor or other part of the appliance needs. Could they have made the fan or timer run off of 240 volts instead and not needed this 4th wire? Sure they could have, but there are good and valid reasons for not doing so. Mainly it has to do with sourcing of suitable parts or having those parts a little safer by running off of the lower voltage.

When we run 120 volt circuits in our house, we use ONE of the phases, it doesn't matter which one (except for load balancing, which is another subject entirely) and we use the neutral wire. The neutral wire carries just as much current as the "hot" wire which we now know is a SINGLE phase of the TWO phase power delivered to our homes. Every electron that flow out of the hot wire and goes thru the appliance flows back into the neutral wire .

This is why if you disconnect a neutral wire with a load in series with it, you will see an arc just as if you had disconnected the "hot" single phase wire. Green ground wires do NOT carry any current UNLESS something goes wrong and a phase has shorted to the green ground wire, THEN they carry massive current. Hopefully enough current to trip out the fuse or breaker before the wire bursts into flame. Remember fuses and breakers are sized to protect the WIRING so that it does not become hot enough to burst into flames or cause something it is next to to burst into flames and burn your house down. They sure as heck don't protect people from getting shocked in any way.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #63  
Fixed it for ya. Yeah, it's words with multiple meanings/uses that gets folks confused, as usual.

Yes, and the old Lincoln 225 welder has nothing inside that needs 120 volt power. Even the fan motor inside is an actual 240 volt fan so there is no need for a Neutral wire and hence only has a 3 wire cord and plug. And it has no need for the green ground wire to operate perfectly either. Right up the possibility of the breakdown of insulation inside and the case being energized. Then standing on the wet earth and touching the metallic case could become hazardous to your health. It might be the last thing you ever touch. But that all depends on how good your shoes are, how damp the earth or concrete is, or is that other had touching something well grounded etc. Lots of variables there to determine if you just "get a tingle" or you die.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #64  
I have a good understanding of how a electrical circuit works. All I was saying is sometimes terminology is what is different. I have never heard of 2 phase electricity. All I ever heard of is either single phase or three phase.

I work on a lot of single and three phase equipment. Never seen a 2 phase piece of equipment offered.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #65  
I have a good understanding of how a electrical circuit works. All I was saying is sometimes terminology is what is different. I have never heard of 2 phase electricity. All I ever heard of is either single phase or three phase.

I work on a lot of single and three phase equipment. Never seen a 2 phase piece of equipment offered.

Yep, I agree. but the two legs are separate phases for sure. We just don't note that. If both legs were the same phase, You would not get shocked when you touched them with two parts of your body. Just like you don't get shocked as long as you are only touching a single phase while insulated from ground. But trust me you can be as insulated from ground as you like but if you touch the 2 phases with your body you will be badly shocked and burned. We can put multiple sources of electricity together without incident as long as the phase is the same. It is done every day with powerplants feeding their power into common distribution lines. As long as the phase angle is maintained no problem. If one feed is even slightly out of phase, then BIG problem. You KNOW that neither leg of the 240 power coming into your box is grounded in ANY way. you KNOW that you will be energized if you touch EITHER leg. You KNOW there will be a big BOOM if you touch the two legs together with a conductor. There for you should KNOW that they are of a different phase. They are NOT in phase. You can prove that with the dual trace oscilloscope. So if one is one phase and the other is a different phase, would you not think that there are actually two phases's?


How about a simple experiment. Wire up two new circuits, these can be 120 volt circuits. an make sure that these two seperate breakers have a space between the breakers so that BOTH of the hot wires are on the same phase. After testing the outlets with an appliance you see that both circuits work well. . Now take a small wire conductor and hold it with plairs and rubber gloves and touch it between the two hot wires. If the two hot wires are on the same phase what will happen? Nothing will happen. Not a single darn thing. No flash , no boom no smoke. Now move the one breaker either direction in the breaker box. Now the one outlet is on a different phase isn't it? Now touch that little wire between the two hot wires in the outlet, what will happen. Blinding flash, smoke fire flame. etc. Why? Because the other hot wire is on another phase. There are two phases. Count them one, two. 2 phase electricity. Woo Hoo. You could do the same thing by wiring up an electrical cord with two male plugs on each end. Plug one into a convenient outlet. then lets play Russion roulette by plugging the other end into various other outlets in the house.. Some of the outlets you plug into do nothing, others there is a big blinding flash, maybe some smoke, and hopefully a breaker trip. WHY? Because there are two phases. And some of the outlets are wired on one phase, and some on another phase. Go ahead and make up the suicide cord, I will wait for your results. Now come back and tell me about the two phases. :) It is a good experiment. Note* Most of the outlets in one room will be on a single phase and nothing wlll happen, but watch out other rooms can and likely will be on different phases. :) BOOM!
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #66  
Here is the thing that I think gets people confused. The DISTRUBUTION of the power is single phase or 3 phase. Most of us don't have 3 phase run into our homes, and the single distribution wire out in the street near our house is also single phase. Often 7200 volts. Get some one on here like Cooby that worked for a power utility all of his life can tell you much more about this than I can. BUT in the "pole pig" transformer on the pole or the transformer box on the ground the single phase feed becomes two phases, because they are taken off of different ends of the transformer. They also conveniently make a center tap on that transformer too. The two ends are of different phases. This is just the way transformers work. The 240 volts is measured end to end off of the transformer. the 120 is volts measured from one end to the center tap. That center tap is grounded at the transformer and we call it the Neutral. Bad things happen to 120 volt circuits if that Neutral "floats" and is not well grounded. So the power is run into our breaker box. Leg 1 is phase 1 and Leg 2 is phase 2 and Neutral is well neutral. If we hook a circuit to either leg and Neutral we get 120 volts. If we hook a circuit to just the Leg 1 and Leg 2 then we get 240 volts, because the legs are 180 degrees out of phase. TWO phases now in our homes.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #67  
Then we can talk about 208v 3ph vs 240v 3ph then add a high leg. L1, L2 or L3 to ground of both 208V or 240v will be 120v except for the high leg, normally L2 that could be 170v or higher. But L1 to L2 or any other combination across legs will be 208 or 240 even with the high leg.

Also 110v is more dangerous then 480v. We can go on and on. None of which will help the OP and his welder.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #68  
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   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #69  
Legs aren't separate phases, just out of phase with each other. There is only one phase going across them both for 240v at any given time.
 
   / Weak Arc on Lincoln 225 ac #70  
Legs aren't separate phases, just out of phase with each other. There is only one phase going across them both for 240v at any given time.

Always was my understanding.
 

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