GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness

   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness
  • Thread Starter
#11  
I'm liking the "consensus" of ground-related issues. That was the issue with the work lights. Two bolts a half-inch from each other, one a great ground, the other a poor one. And when you test for continuity (especially with my older multimeter) on a poor ground, you get a reading that is 'close' to a good ground, but not exact. I will begin chasing ground issues on this rear light.
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #12  
mg,
Here is how to use your digital voltmeter to measure how much ground is missing. Create a PARALLEL PATH, thru your voltmeter, with the suspected poor circuit. For example, from the negative battery post to the the light bulb ground connector. Turn on the light. You must power the bulb or whatever load you are trying to test.
Since the volt meter needs NO power to power itself, the reading you get is what you are MISSING.. In a perfect connection, the voltmeter will read zero, because your wires and connectors would be carrying every electron they are supposed to. No voltage would need to flow thru the meter, because the wires would be doing the job.
In reality, they do not.
Works the same way on the positive side of things. Hook up to the plus terminal of the battery and put the other clip to the light bulb positive. (Create a parallel path) What your digital meter reads (maybe 1.09 volts, for example) is the volts that ARE NOT getting to the bulb. The loss is in connections, fuses, switches, relays, etc. The heavier the load, the more voltage drop you will see in the same circuit. In other words, if you measure 1.09 running 2 headlights and you unplug one, the voltage drop will be less, because there is less power required to flow thru the same circuit.
You can check portions of a circuit the same way. Just create a parallel path thru the digital voltmeter.
You can check the voltage drop thru just a switch, to see if there is resistance due to poor contacts or an undersized switch. Just clip the meter on each switch terminal, then turn it on. (Load the circuit)
Pretty fascinating stuff, at least to me.
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness
  • Thread Starter
#13  
mg,
Here is how to use your digital voltmeter to measure how much ground is missing...
Pretty fascinating stuff, at least to me.

I'm with you on being keen to have the knowledge! Of course, I'd rather it just worked, but I'm up for solving the problem and in this case it is a ground issue.

My multimeter is older so I test continuity with the diode setting. Where "1" is open and 0.001 is a decent continuity reading. I find that as little of a difference as 0.003 is enough to be considered a bad ground. The left-hand light unit is a puzzler. The top bulb (red: running, signal) lights in both states, even though the ground is less than ideal, whereas the two lower bulbs do not.

If I run a separate ground from battery to the ground strip in the fixture, all is good. The right-hand unit, for comparison, enjoys an 0.001 ground-continuity reading while the left is around 0.004. I am left to diagnose and restore a clean ground to the left-hand strip.

I am moving through the circuit to see where the degradation happens. I will incorporate your parallel drain-measuring method.
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Fortunately I did not have to go far to find the weak link. First connector below the light had a corroded pin and a loose clasp, which have been addressed and now the light unit works as it should.

Very grounding experience...
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #15  
VERY HAPPY to have helped! Your post made my day!
Does it not feel good to have the knowledge to help yourself in future issues?

Resistance of an UNPOWERED circuit always remains the same, but voltage DROP (varies) (increases) as more electrons try to pass thru, either on their way to the job (+) , or on their trip back home(-). So measuring resistance is OK, but voltage drop is much clearer and more telling.
It has been my 71 year old experience that knowledge builds upon itself, small steps by small steps.
You can not add 245 plus 107 until you discover that 2+2=4.......
Not real sure, but I think you could put your hands on a voltmeter reading in hundredths (12.63, for example) for less than $20. Just reading in tenths is not nearly as good.
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Not sure if I understood your suggestion on multimeter measurement levels, but as old as mine is, it is still digital and registers thousandths.

The other question is about returning electrons: Is there not a consumption of electricity at the load affecting the quantity of the flow returning to the battery? It's been 45 years since my last electronic course, so it feels dumb to ask, but I really don't quite get that..
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #17  
I can see what you are saying-some power is converted to heat or light or rotary motion, so does it need to return to the source?
Not sure what to say here about that. I do not want to give false info, nor try to explain things I don’t understand, but I know that the battery ground cable is always as big or bigger than the positive cable. That indicates to me that each side of the load carries the same amount of amps, somehow.

Yes, I think you will get a lower voltage reading on the ground side of a filament as compared to the powered side.

When I am trying to describe voltage drop, the actual voltage reading is really not that important. What we are doing is comparing the voltage reading of a theoretically perfect connection with the actual reading, under load. The number seen on the meter reflects how much is MISSING due to an imperfect path, whether it’s on the powered side or the ground side.

Just for your own entertainment, set your meter to register at least 2 volts, 12 volts will work fine as long as the resolution is hundredths or more, as yours seems to be. We are talking volts here, not ohms, OK?
Hook up a parallel path on some steady load, like a bulb. (The digital meter doesn’t work so well on something like starter draw or a turn signal, because the meter does not find the correct number and display it before the number changes. The meter continually hunts for the right reading.)

I have a scar on my chin from my jaw hitting the floor the first time I saw how simple and valuable this voltage drop reading is.
If the meter reads something like O.21 you have a pretty good connection. More than a volt, or a volt and a half, indicates you can make some improvements.

I discovered this working on snowplow headlights on our Highway Department plow trucks. Mine was a tri-axle, 12 foot main plow, 10 foot wing and a sander on the back. When the plow was off, the regular headlights were pretty good, but when the plow was mounted, we switched to auxiliary headlights mounted up higher than the hood, so they would shine over the moldboard. These lights were so dim you could hardly see at night, especially in heavy snow.
When voltage drop was measured, first on the power side, then on the ground side, we were missing about 3 volts total. That makes a nominal 12 volt headlight run at 9 volts!
The problem was power from the OEM headlight switch was intercepted near the OEM headlight and routed back to the cab, into a selector switch, then back out another wire to the aux lights. Too light of a wire gauge, long distances, several connections, an extra switch, high-low beam connections, etc. degraded the voltage a volt or more.
The bigger culprit was the ground path.
I remember preparing a bigger, better ground wire, from the headlights ground terminal to a bare spot on the frame. This was in a pretty dark, dingy building. Since I did not remove the existing ground wire, the plow lights would shine on the far wall at what we had considered normal brightness. When I touched the new ground wire to the bare spot on the frame, it was like night and day difference. I could make the lights go from dim to bright by touching and removing the new ground wire from the frame. Every driver out of our shop wanted a better ground wire.

Since it was much more complicated to improve the power supply side, I never did do anything more there, but I would have liked to hook up a relay, powered (and fused) from the alternator output terminal, the output going directly to the headlights, then use the OEM wire to merely trigger the relay. That would bypass ALL the wires, switches, connections, etc. being used and replace them with one heavy, short wire from the alternator, thru the relay, then on to the sealed beams. These relays, called ice cube relays, can be had for $3-5.
Never did. Retired now, so it does not matter.
 
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   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #18  
Hook up a parallel path on some steady load, like a bulb. (The digital meter doesn’t work so well on something like starter draw or a turn signal, because the meter does not find the correct number and display it before the number changes. The meter continually hunts for the right reading.).

very easy to check starter volt drop set to 12V setting. hook leads to + and - of battery. read voltage. say sits at 13.1v.
turn key (do not use glow plugs) let crank few seconds before stoping read volts.
subtract from start.
thats starter voltage drop.
if battery 10.5 or so while cranking starter should be ok.
what you do NOT want to do with a normal multimeter is starter AMP draw.
you can ruin meter. I had old one I messed around with, wanted to see if fuse would blow in time to prevent damage on starter amp draw. maybe it did but the 14 gauge wires on fire killed it....
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #19  
Not sure if I understood your suggestion on multimeter measurement levels, but as old as mine is, it is still digital and registers thousandths.

The other question is about returning electrons: Is there not a consumption of electricity at the load affecting the quantity of the flow returning to the battery? It's been 45 years since my last electronic course, so it feels dumb to ask, but I really don't quite get that..

The current in the loop is constant and is set by the total resistance found in all the consumers in the loop. A guy by the name of Kirchoff discovered this principle. The voltage across the different loads, including the loss in the wiring, varies by the particular resistance. In automotive/tractor systems which are mostly powered by 12VDC systems, the source voltage is 12. All the voltage drops across all the different loads in the loop must be added together and will then equal 12 volts - the source voltage. This too is part of Kirchoff's discovery.

When there is a bad connection, then the connection creates a voltage drop that is not intended in the system. It my cause a several volt drop and it will get hot if there are a few amps flowing through the connection. That voltage has to affect the other consumers in the loop. If we drop a couple volts at a connection point, then we have 12-(couple volts) available for the real desired consumers.. If these are designed to run at near 12 volts, they will get wonky at less than 12 volts.

As to electrons being lost? No, that does not happen. They just move around bumping into objects that resist their movement. The bumping causes voltage drop and corresponding heat.
 
   / GC2410 Rear Light Weirdness #20  
I remember preparing a bigger, better ground wire, from the headlights ground terminal to a bare spot on the frame. This was in a pretty dark, dingy building. Since I did not remove the existing ground wire, the plow lights would shine on the far wall at what we had considered normal brightness. When I touched the new ground wire to the bare spot on the frame, it was like night and day difference. I could make the lights go from dim to bright by touching and removing the new ground wire from the frame. Every driver out of our shop wanted a better ground wire.

After reading this, I decided to clean up the connectors from the wiring harness to the marker lights. They have never been apart since new (2004). Remarkable difference in brightness after the connectors were cleaned.
Thank you for the post.
 

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