Buying Advice LS MT225HE vs Kioto CK2610 vs Bobcat CT2025 & PTO questions

[Trippy1313]

Hey all, I've been tinkering with my old Case 580CK for a while, and kind of feeling like I'll never get the chance to tear down the hydraulics to get the 3pt hitch working any time in the next year. Plus it's only 2WD and in the winter my property can get a little soft.

Essentially I want a 25-35hp tractor with an FEL (60-66" bucket), and I'm seriously considering the backhoe attachment as well. I have an old mower deck (Might need some repairs) and a huge custom made box blade. Most of my use will be mowing our 5 acres, but occasionally moving dirt and gravel around for horse paddocks as well as gravel driveway/road maintenance. Eventually I'll be doing some work in the back woods, clearing out the property border for horse fencing.

So.... I'm going over different tractors. I haven't had much luck finding actual pricing, but based on specs I've narrowed my search to three tractors. I've considered each of these brands in their 35hp equivalents but after borrowing my Father-In-Law's JD 3025e, I'm pretty sure these 25hp are capable of my needs since they all out-spec the JD.

LS MT225HE
Bobcat CT2025
Kioti CK2610

Aside from knowing actual pricing, I feel the specs are better across the board for the Bobcat/Kioti. But blue is my favorite color. hahaha

BUT, from what I see, it looks like the Bobcat/Kioti have a "Live PTO," which is where I have doubts and need help and more info.

It's my understanding that with a live PTO I'm required to completely stop movement of the tractor to start/stop the pto, where with an independent pto I can start and stop it on the move. Is that correct?

Personally I see a lot of comparisons with the CK2610, but not many with or to the CT2025 & MT225HE. I do understand the Bobcat is essentially the same as the Kioti except FEL specs/build.

I feel personally that being able to engage/disengage the pto on the fly suits me better and appears to be a good convenience then having to not only stop the tractor but deal with a clutch pedal every time as well.

Do any of you with Live pto's ever have any issues that you'd prefer an independent? And does anyone with an independent have any issues with theirs? I've been trying to search this for a while but don't see many complaints either way. Also I have seen some say that the kioti "live" pto isn't a traditional live pto. Is that true, and in what ways? There wasn't much info other than people saying that....

Anyways, I think I've rambled enough. Any advice would help... I'm super impressed by all three, but on one hand lean towards the bobcat/kioti because of a bit more capability, and I hear a lot of people like the location of the loader controls, compared to the traditional location the LS has. But the PTO engagement really makes me consider the LS, unless you all think its really not that big of a thing? I dunno, the pto on the JD 3025e is really my only experience, and its just a switch that activates the independent.

Thank you all in advance. If you all have any of these and can advise on what to expect price-wise, please chime in. I'm feeling the LS may be the cheapest but sometimes if price is close enough its worth paying more.

 

[Trippy1313]

Well, I called my local Bobcat dealer, asking about the PTO, because their listing said it was both live and independent, which didn't make sense. So I called, and they forwarded me to the area sales rep.

He sort of explained that it is technically listed as a live PTO, but it is kind of inbetween, in that, it has the lever that at certain rpms you can just engage or disengage it on the move, and ramp up the rpms to where you need, or, it does have a clutch pedal that can be used during high rpms to engage/disengage, as well as supposedly even though it is a hydro tranny, it has 3 speeds and also a high and low, with 2 neutrals that the clutch pedal is used for???

It was a little confusing, BUT.... he said that they often will drop a tractor/machinery off at an interested buyers place for a day or two to get a feel for it. If I was interested in seeing how it worked and testing it out for myself. Obviously a great sales tactic to get people to just leave it there. But, since they're only open Mon-Fri 7am-5pm... That might work out pretty good. But I think the smart think would be to first go see the Kioti and LS dealers and get their prices first, so I don't get suckered into the Bobcat Im test driving.

I'm really curious which of the Bobcat or Kioti comes in at a lower price. I'm think the LS is the lowest priced just based on what I've seen so far. I really like all three.

 

[MoKelly]

I’m not sure I can help you but, I’ll try.

I have the Bobcat CT235 HST. I got it the first time Bobcat was offering tractors.

I only use the PTO to mow and brush hog. I’ve got roughly 500 hours.

I have only engaged/disengaged the PTO one way. I always stop where I want to begin. Lower the RPM’s. Push in the clutch. Engage the PTO lever. Let out the clutch slowly. Ramp up the RPM’s. Move forward.

I disengage the same way.

I have never even thought about engaging the PTO on the fly. I’m not sure how that would be beneficial to me in what I do with the tractor. Seems to be if you engaged the PTO at high RPM’s with my tractor only bad things will happen.

MoKelly

 

[DK35vince]

I have never even thought about engaging the PTO on the fly. I’m not sure how that would be beneficial to me in what I do with the tractor. Seems to be if you engaged the PTO at high RPM’s with my tractor only bad things will happen.

I wouldn't recommend starting any PTO at high RPM (live or independent)
I have independent PTO. I can start/stop the PTO on the move, but I still throttle down to idle (or just above) to start or stop the PTO.

 

[Trippy1313]

Well, mostly I could see myself disengaging it while moving. Examples I can think of are maybe going through a soft area or slope that I wouldn't want to stop in, or maybe when trying to avoid hitting/mowing something. I do know starting up the pto at high RPMs is a good way to snap shear bolts, if not other damage.

 

[Texasmark]

Hey all, I've been tinkering with my old Case 580CK for a while, and kind of feeling like I'll never get the chance to tear down the hydraulics to get the 3pt hitch working any time in the next year. Plus it's only 2WD and in the winter my property can get a little soft.

Essentially I want a 25-35hp tractor with an FEL (60-66" bucket), and I'm seriously considering the backhoe attachment as well. I have an old mower deck (Might need some repairs) and a huge custom made box blade. Most of my use will be mowing our 5 acres, but occasionally moving dirt and gravel around for horse paddocks as well as gravel driveway/road maintenance. Eventually I'll be doing some work in the back woods, clearing out the property border for horse fencing.

So.... I'm going over different tractors. I haven't had much luck finding actual pricing, but based on specs I've narrowed my search to three tractors. I've considered each of these brands in their 35hp equivalents but after borrowing my Father-In-Law's JD 3025e, I'm pretty sure these 25hp are capable of my needs since they all out-spec the JD.

LS MT225HE
Bobcat CT2025
Kioti CK2610

Aside from knowing actual pricing, I feel the specs are better across the board for the Bobcat/Kioti. But blue is my favorite color. hahaha

BUT, from what I see, it looks like the Bobcat/Kioti have a "Live PTO," which is where I have doubts and need help and more info.

It's my understanding that with a live PTO I'm required to completely stop movement of the tractor to start/stop the pto, where with an independent pto I can start and stop it on the move. Is that correct?

Personally I see a lot of comparisons with the CK2610, but not many with or to the CT2025 & MT225HE. I do understand the Bobcat is essentially the same as the Kioti except FEL specs/build.

I feel personally that being able to engage/disengage the pto on the fly suits me better and appears to be a good convenience then having to not only stop the tractor but deal with a clutch pedal every time as well.

Do any of you with Live pto's ever have any issues that you'd prefer an independent? And does anyone with an independent have any issues with theirs? I've been trying to search this for a while but don't see many complaints either way. Also I have seen some say that the kioti "live" pto isn't a traditional live pto. Is that true, and in what ways? There wasn't much info other than people saying that....

Anyways, I think I've rambled enough. Any advice would help... I'm super impressed by all three, but on one hand lean towards the bobcat/kioti because of a bit more capability, and I hear a lot of people like the location of the loader controls, compared to the traditional location the LS has. But the PTO engagement really makes me consider the LS, unless you all think its really not that big of a thing? I dunno, the pto on the JD 3025e is really my only experience, and its just a switch that activates the independent.

Thank you all in advance. If you all have any of these and can advise on what to expect price-wise, please chime in. I'm feeling the LS may be the cheapest but sometimes if price is close enough its worth paying more.

My 3000 is old school Live PTO. The clutch is actually a double clutch unit piggybacked off the entine to 2 concentric splines making up the tranny input shaft. The operation is such that with the clutch pedal fully depressed, nothing moves. As the pedal is released, somewhere (depends on adjustment) around half way up the PTO starts turning but there is no ground engagement...this would start your shredder rotating (as an example) before the tractor started moving. Then as the pedal continues it's journey to the full up position, the ground engagement kicks in and the wheels start turning.

My 6530 has an Independent, electrically engaged 24 disc clutch pack PTO which engages upon switch movement to the ON position And satisfies the criteria for an Independent PTO. It also has a "Live" position of the PTO switch. In this position, if the PTO is rotating, that can be interrupted by depressing the clutch and both of these functions are totally independent of ground engagement of the tires and this is classified as Live PTO....modern day I guess.

I had a '63 Ford 2000 with a Tranny driven PTO and that and ground engagement occurred simultaneously when the clutch pedal was released with both activated.

I had a 2016 Branson 2400 with Tranny PTO and it acted like a combination of Tranny and Live...somewhat. Starting with the PTO engaged with the engine running and clutch depressed, as you let the clutch out, the PTO would start a second or two before the wheels would start turning. This PTO had an internal overrun clutch, not external like would have to be added to the Ford 2000, whereby when you turn off the PTO with the engine running, the PTO decelerates regardless of the engine RPMs just like would happen with the 2000 except all the gearing is still connected internally whereby the 2000 had a sleeve connecting the tranny to the PTO shaft that is disconnected as you move the PTO lever to the OFF position.

If building a row of fence requiring augering holes for posts, the 3000 type Live PTO is my favorite. It is the smoothest operation and the reason why is the clutch pedal can allow the tractor to move a little at a time while the auger is still turning when you are trying to straighten out a hole and maintain your tractors alignment with the line of the fence row.

So I guess that covers the different types of old vs new.

 

[Texasmark]

I wouldn't recommend starting any PTO at high RPM (live or independent)
I have independent PTO. I can start/stop the PTO on the move, but I still throttle down to idle (or just above) to start or stop the PTO.

I just bought my first HST tractor and the manual mentions that the RPM limit is set higher than for geared type trannies because the pump has to be up to RPMs for things to work without stalling at the lowest RPM. As a result, minimum RPMs on my 225 are ECU controlled at 1340, not the 600-700 to which I am accustomed. I'll have to get used to the shredder blade "whack" when engaging with this tractor. There are multiple discs in the PTO however, 24 on my 6530, don't know the count on the 225 so there is some "spin up" in the engagement relieving stresses from startup inertia......but it's different.

 

[Trippy1313]

Thanks Mark! That's a lot more understandable information on how some different PTOs work than I've been able to find. And all together.

I'll have to see first hand but I'm thinking the bobcat/kioti might operate similar to your 6530 from the guys description.

But yes, post holes I will be doing a lot of. I'm thinking 200 just to surround the property. So being able to creep and engage/disengage would maybe help there if possible.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

You mention post holes.... that is one thing that I do a lot of!.... to me the independent PTO is the way to go. I turn sideways in the seat, use my left hand to operate the PTO switch, and my right hand on the 3 point lift handle. I can stop the PTO / auger almost instantly. In my opinion, I feel like I have better control and I feel it is safer too, due to that control.

When mowing, I have some areas where I have to turn and don't want the mower running at full rpm. Easy to hit the switch and shut down the mower without slowing the tractor. Once I get repositioned, it's easy to just throttle down briefly to re-engage the PTO. If the mower is still spinning, I don't even throttle down.

Mine is the gear version, not sure if the HST would be any different, probably not.

I now have 202 hours on my LS, all trouble free. I was stuck between choosing the LS (MT225E) or the Kioti (CK2610). They are both great tractors. Sit on them, get one that "fits" you. You need to be comfortable.

The choice for me boiled down to price.... I wanted the BH no matter what... I was able to get the LS TLB, 60" heavy box blade, and a heavy duty PHD / auger for $21,300. I couldn't get just the Kioti TLB for less than $26k.... that's a big difference! In some areas of the country, the price difference is not as dramatic. Some LS dealers are a lot higher in areas, some Kioti dealers are a bit lower... you get the idea....

The one and only Bobcat dealer here is just as expensive as the Kubota and JD dealers. They have a captive customer base and actually raise the prices 10-15% OVER MSRP instead of discounting off. They raise the prices way higher, then discount a few percent making their customers think they are getting a 'good deal'. The one and only Mahindra dealer also has prices as high as JD!

Good luck with your decision! A tough one for sure!

 

[BrkMstr]

The CK SE's have an independent PTO, it's a nice set up as it gives you an Auto option to use, when I set it to auto, when I lift the three point to a certain height the PTO shuts off, it's nice when you are mowing and have to lift - when you lower the three point it activates the PTO, when I'm running it I will raise it a full RPM without any concern, the mower simply shuts down - when I put it down I cut the RPMs way down, I don't let it activate at 2200 - it will do it if you want it to, but to me it would create some unnecessary wear and tear on the machine. No way I can be convinced that slamming it in at 2200 would be good for it!