TC-25D Won't Crank - I Need Some Help Please

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

TC-25D Won't Crank - I Need Some Help Please

New Holland Yr 2000 Model TC25D with HST. Have had a couple of intermittent failures to crank (before I last replaced battery) which seemingly healed themselves. Solenoid now silent with no start when key fully turned to the right.

Slow charged 18 mo. old battery (indicated fully charged)– terminals freshly cleaned and tight – actually load tests at slightly over 10 volts. Removed battery ground wire to frame and sand papered just to ensure solid ground.
Headlights and instrument panel lights all operative with ignition switch on.
Key turn seems to properly engage glow plug and result in normal pre-heat functionality.
Hazard lights work with key removed.
Main 30a and all fuses in fuse box visibly good.
Test light illuminates/confirms power from battery to single solenoid main lug – all solenoid/starter connections clean and tight.
Parking brake light illuminates when brakes set/handle activated.
PTO and Mid-PTO levers activate PTO ON Indicator when engaged, turn off warning light when set in “OFF” position. Moved through ranges several times before return to “OFF” positions.
HST range lever moved throughout ranges and reset to either (tried both) of the two (2) NEUTRAL positions.
No seat safety switch installed on this model.
Checked good connection on dual wire push in plug PTO safety switch (PTO ON warning light off if both wires connected or if switch is bypassed with solid copper jumper; warning light on if one or both wires disconnected).
Both PTOs, HST range and parking brake safety switches appear visually clean and seem to operate panel indicator lights as operationally expected.
HST pedal moved throughout forward and reverse ranges and returned to (Middle) presumed “NEUTRAL” with HST Range lever set to “NEUTRAL” position; All PTO levers in “OFF” position; Parking brake engaged; Clutch pedal fully depressed; ignition key turned fully to right – result is no solenoid noise/no starter turnover.
No visible rodent chews or damage on any wiring.
Tapped solenoid body with hammer while attempting to crank, silent – no response.
Front loader bucket attached with lower blade edge angled down on the ground

Is it likely that these OEM safety switches would operate dash warning lights without adequate current to properly function?

Does anyone know appropriate DMM readings/ranges for each of the safety switches?

Is there a sequential series in which safety switches should be tested using DMM?

If I bypass solenoid and start tractor, will key still shut this diesel engine down?

Is there a testing procedure for this kind of problem in a Shop Repair manual?

Any suggestions on where to get a wiring diagram and/or repair manual for this model? (concerned about downloading some kind of computer virus or getting scammed from websites/sellers I don’t know anything about).

I greatly appreciate any help or advice – I’m obviously not a good mechanic – thanks for your time and expertise.

Very respectfully yours,

TC25Dave - newby

RustyA · May 21, 2021

Fully charged battery should test for 12.6 volts. Very likely your battery has a bad cell and solenoid needs 12v. Lights will illuminate with the 10.5 volts your 5 good cells are putting out. Trying jumpstarting with another vehicle to take your battery out of the equation.

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

I will try that and report back with results - many thanks for your suggestion!

dlctcg · May 21, 2021

I would definitely check that battery...

Below is from one of my previous post.... It should explain how to test your cables. Hope this is a help: (see below)

Starting Problems:

NH Have a few known gremlins that can pop-up: (these are the things I would be checking first.)
1) Battery Cables both positive & ground (description below)
2) Check for a lose / or chaffed ground wire
3) Ignition Switch -
4) Voltage at the Starter Solenoid -

Cable Test:
Older New Holland battery cables often corrode inside the terminal (or in the cable itself) where it is sometimes impossible to see; not sure if was an issue with your particular yr / model... You will often have voltage so everything seems good. (gauges & all are working). So you will have voltage but they will not supply the required Amperage.

You can test if there is an issue with your existing battery cables pretty simply.

Remove the negative battery cable & then take a negative jumper cable wire and place it on the bare negative post of your tractor battery. Connect the other end to a solid clean ground of the tractor (bare metal location). Try starting the tractor & see if that makes a difference...

If that doesn't change anything you can do the same process on the positive post. Disconnect the Negative jumper from the Battery terminal. Then using your positive jumper cable attach one end to where the positive battery cable connects to the starter (connect this end first), and the other end to the positive battery post (last). Make sure the jumper cable is not able to arc to near by metal. Now reconnect the Negative jumper cable to the battery & try starting the tractor again & see if that changes anything...

Doing this process you basically bypassed the battery cables on the machine, and then can troubleshoot from there. I wouldn't put any more parts on it till I checked the factory cables...

Ignition Switch:
These are also prone to issues & can cause the issue your describing. (I'll see if I can find a testing procedure).... but check to see if you have voltage at the starter solenoid when the key is turned to start..

Starter Solenoid:
Make sure you have 12V at the starter solenoid when you turn the key to START...

If you see voltage only sometime I'm thinking it either a spotty ground or Ignition switch.

If you are see voltage Each time you turn the key to the START position but it is less than 12V this will definitely cause an inconsistent starting issue. This circuit shares the voltage source with the glow plug timer (& I believe passes through some of the safety switches). Overtime the wiring & connection get dirty / lose there ability to pass the voltage. You can modify the current wiring & add a dedicated relay for supplying direct power to the starter solenoid via the same circuits. I did this on our TC40D & it made a big difference for our machine... but I would first diagnosis the issue

Wasmeneh · May 21, 2021

My Ford 1920 wouldn't start the other day tried to jump start it with a k own good battery. Turns out the bad battery was still making it fail to start. Got a new battery and all is good.
If yours won't jump start the battery may still be your problem.

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

Tried jumping from a running F150 pickup - still nothing.

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

dlctcg said:
I would definitely check that battery...

Below is from one of my previous post.... It should explain how to test your cables. Hope this is a help: (see below)

Starting Problems:

NH Have a few known gremlins that can pop-up: (these are the things I would be checking first.)
1) Battery Cables both positive & ground (description below)
2) Check for a lose / or chaffed ground wire
3) Ignition Switch -
4) Voltage at the Starter Solenoid -

Cable Test:
Older New Holland battery cables often corrode inside the terminal (or in the cable itself) where it is sometimes impossible to see; not sure if was an issue with your particular yr / model... You will often have voltage so everything seems good. (gauges & all are working). So you will have voltage but they will not supply the required Amperage.

You can test if there is an issue with your existing battery cables pretty simply.

Remove the negative battery cable & then take a negative jumper cable wire and place it on the bare negative post of your tractor battery. Connect the other end to a solid clean ground of the tractor (bare metal location). Try starting the tractor & see if that makes a difference...

If that doesn't change anything you can do the same process on the positive post. Disconnect the Negative jumper from the Battery terminal. Then using your positive jumper cable attach one end to where the positive battery cable connects to the starter (connect this end first), and the other end to the positive battery post (last). Make sure the jumper cable is not able to arc to near by metal. Now reconnect the Negative jumper cable to the battery & try starting the tractor again & see if that changes anything...

Doing this process you basically bypassed the battery cables on the machine, and then can troubleshoot from there. I wouldn't put any more parts on it till I checked the factory cables...

Ignition Switch:
These are also prone to issues & can cause the issue your describing. (I'll see if I can find a testing procedure).... but check to see if you have voltage at the starter solenoid when the key is turned to start..

Starter Solenoid:
Make sure you have 12V at the starter solenoid when you turn the key to START...

If you see voltage only sometime I'm thinking it either a spotty ground or Ignition switch.

If you are see voltage Each time you turn the key to the START position but it is less than 12V this will definitely cause an inconsistent starting issue. This circuit shares the voltage source with the glow plug timer (& I believe passes through some of the safety switches). Overtime the wiring & connection get dirty / lose there ability to pass the voltage. You can modify the current wiring & add a dedicated relay for supplying direct power to the starter solenoid via the same circuits. I did this on our TC40D & it made a big difference for our machine... but I would first diagnosis the issue

I'm an old guy and about give out after a day of fussin' with it. Excellent suggestions as these are definitely the OEM battery cables devilishly appearing to be good from the outside - just the kind of place gremlins love to lurk. I will try and round up a set of helping hands and continue chasing the problem - hopefully tomorrow. I will report back with results from those efforts - many thanks for your insightful help!

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

Wasmeneh said:
My Ford 1920 wouldn't start the other day tried to jump start it with a k own good battery. Turns out the bad battery was still making it fail to start. Got a new battery and all is good.
If yours won't jump start the battery may still be your problem.

Wife got a new car a few months ago - If cable swaps suggested by dlctctg don't help. I will follow your suggestion next and report back. Thanks for sharing the benefit of your "been there couldn't believe what happened!" experience - would not have thought of this otherwise.

lman · May 21, 2021

If the tractor was always stored inside, it's unlikely to be corroded cables. If it was left outside at some time there is likely some corrosion to the cables. Where are you located? Humidity could get your cables.

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

lman said:
If the tractor was always stored inside, it's unlikely to be corroded cables. If it was left outside at some time there is likely some corrosion to the cables. Where are you located? Humidity could get your cables.

Stored inside much of its' life, but has been outside under a tarp for a few years now. Just outside Memphis, so humidity could well be a factor. I hope to continue testing with everyone's great suggestions - gonna try and find another set of eyes and hands to help keep me honest (and able to walk)! So glad I found this discussion forum!

grsthegreat · May 21, 2021

you need to place a DC voltmeter on the positive cable and ground when you try cranking. a battery at 12.1 volts is functionally dead. a properly charged battery should maintain around 12.6 volts during cranking. if that battery shows 10 volts under load, its past dead. just jumping may not help. put a new, known good battery in system.

i also usually ohm out my battery cables between post and bolts to verify there not damaged internally. over the years i have seen these cables damaged internally. they wont allow for the proper amperage during start.

i use a midtronics tester on my problem starters, and i usually see the voltages drop down to the 10v area on dead cell batteries.

TC25Dave · May 21, 2021

grsthegreat said:
you need to place a DC voltmeter on the positive cable and ground when you try cranking. a battery at 12.1 volts is functionally dead. a properly charged battery should maintain around 12.6 volts during cranking. if that battery shows 10 volts under load, its past dead. just jumping may not help. put a new, known good battery in system.

i also usually ohm out my battery cables between post and bolts to verify there not damaged internally. over the years i have seen these cables damaged internally. they wont allow for the proper amperage during start.

i use a midtronics tester on my problem starters, and i usually see the voltages drop down to the 10v area on dead cell batteries.

Thank you for this solid advice. Consensus seems to agree with your comments - will have to obtain known good battery, and additional pair of eyes and hands and resume testing with battery cables treated as suspect until proven otherwise. You folks are a great help - I'm in awe of the knowledge and expertise being shared. Thanks again!

dirttoys · May 22, 2021

TC25Dave said:
TC-25D Won't Crank - I Need Some Help Please

New Holland Yr 2000 Model TC25D with HST. Have had a couple of intermittent failures to crank (before I last replaced battery) which seemingly healed themselves. Solenoid now silent with no start when key fully turned to the right.

Slow charged 18 mo. old battery (indicated fully charged)– terminals freshly cleaned and tight – actually load tests at slightly over 10 volts. Removed battery ground wire to frame and sand papered just to ensure solid ground.

Headlights and instrument panel lights all operative with ignition switch on.

Key turn seems to properly engage glow plug and result in normal pre-heat functionality.

Hazard lights work with key removed.

Main 30a and all fuses in fuse box visibly good.

Test light illuminates/confirms power from battery to single solenoid main lug – all solenoid/starter connections clean and tight.

Parking brake light illuminates when brakes set/handle activated.

PTO and Mid-PTO levers activate PTO ON Indicator when engaged, turn off warning light when set in “OFF” position. Moved through ranges several times before return to “OFF” positions.

HST range lever moved throughout ranges and reset to either (tried both) of the two (2) NEUTRAL positions.

No seat safety switch installed on this model.

Checked good connection on dual wire push in plug PTO safety switch (PTO ON warning light off if both wires connected or if switch is bypassed with solid copper jumper; warning light on if one or both wires disconnected).

Both PTOs, HST range and parking brake safety switches appear visually clean and seem to operate panel indicator lights as operationally expected.

HST pedal moved throughout forward and reverse ranges and returned to (Middle) presumed “NEUTRAL” with HST Range lever set to “NEUTRAL” position; All PTO levers in “OFF” position; Parking brake engaged; Clutch pedal fully depressed; ignition key turned fully to right – result is no solenoid noise/no starter turnover.

No visible rodent chews or damage on any wiring.

Tapped solenoid body with hammer while attempting to crank, silent – no response.

Front loader bucket attached with lower blade edge angled down on the ground

Is it likely that these OEM safety switches would operate dash warning lights without adequate current to properly function?

Does anyone know appropriate DMM readings/ranges for each of the safety switches?

Is there a sequential series in which safety switches should be tested using DMM?

If I bypass solenoid and start tractor, will key still shut this diesel engine down?

Is there a testing procedure for this kind of problem in a Shop Repair manual?

Any suggestions on where to get a wiring diagram and/or repair manual for this model? (concerned about downloading some kind of computer virus or getting scammed from websites/sellers I don’t know anything about).

I greatly appreciate any help or advice – I’m obviously not a good mechanic – thanks for your time and expertise.

Very respectfully yours,

TC25Dave - newby

Disclaimer: Make sure tractor is not in gear, loader is hard on the ground, and key is off.

Put power to the key side of the starter solenoid. Starter should spin and bendix engage (even with a weak battery you should at least get a good click out of the solenoid unless the battery is dead). If it spins you have a nanny switch picking on you, if it doesn't and you have 12 volts to the main starter lug, the starter is bad (unlikely).

Best,

ed

TC25Dave · May 22, 2021

Thank you Sir! I will absolutely give this a try. With load tester device attached, current battery will hold at just over 10 amps. Others have pointed out this is probably not enough for proper start function, but your test suggestion will help confirm that the solenoid bendix spins. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think the starter itself is bad. I appreciate your input. I was able to find a wiring diagram, and am trying to go through that to see if I can figure out how to properly test each of the individual safety switch and safety relay functions. As bad a mechanic as I am, I'm finding I'm even worse as an electrical engineer - LOL!

thclimer · May 22, 2021

I would also suspect a weak battery. If you try to jump your tractor with a good battery and the battery in the tractor is bad, possibly a shorted cell, the bad battery in your tractor can "suck" the energy out of the good battery to the point where the good battery is not effective enough to start your tractor. You could try to eliminate (disconnect) the battery from your tractor and jump from a know good battery.

I've also attached some pages from the shop manual which should help if you need to further troubleshoot.

Let us know what you find.

TC25Dave · May 22, 2021

thclimer said:
I would also suspect a weak battery. If you try to jump your tractor with a good battery and the battery in the tractor is bad, possibly a shorted cell, the bad battery in your tractor can "suck" the energy out of the good battery to the point where the good battery is not effective enough to start your tractor. You could try to eliminate (disconnect) the battery from your tractor and jump from a know good battery.

I've also attached some pages from the shop manual which should help if you need to further troubleshoot.

Let us know what you find.

Thanks so very much for all your help. Swapped battery with known good, and nothing. Using details you so kindly shared, pulled the cowlings to get access to the relays. Started DMM testing with ignition switch and confirmed it is bad. Will get replacement switch along with new battery, and remain hopeful that this will solve current starting problem. Could not have done it without you. I'll check back in with everyone as soon as I have more news. Thanks again for your consideration and help!

thclimer · May 23, 2021

TC25Dave said:
Thanks so very much for all your help. Swapped battery with known good, and nothing. Using details you so kindly shared, pulled the cowlings to get access to the relays. Started DMM testing with ignition switch and confirmed it is bad. Will get replacement switch along with new battery, and remain hopeful that this will solve current starting problem. Could not have done it without you. I'll check back in with everyone as soon as I have more news. Thanks again for your consideration and help!

Sounds like you have found your issues.

I had to replace my ignition switch early on with something more robust.

Here is the thread where I documented it:

TC33D Glow Plug Problem Fixed

Well, I finally got around to replacing my ignition switch and in the process I believe I found my intermittent glow plug problem (with turning the ignition switch to the first position the glow plugs would not power up). Due to previous starting issues I had removed and disassemble the OEM...

www.tractorbynet.com

tractorblue · May 24, 2021

For 20 yrs I've battled similiar issues on my TC35... sometimes I need to take a pipe wrench and rotate the shaft (under the cab) that the PTO lever connects to... their is a safety switch there that does not always close...sometimes just moving and applying pressure on the PTO lever does the trick while cranking with the the key on. Good luck!

Mudfarmer · May 24, 2021

I'd zero in on the safety switches. Sequentially compress them with a screw driver and try starting with each one over-compressed. When they go bad its not all or none; usually they go bad gradually (accounting for intermittent starts) and when they fail, they will still often work if over-compressed. That helps you identify which one is bad without changing them all out.

lpakiz · May 24, 2021

If you have a 12 volt test light, not a digital meter, hook it to the small actuator terminal on the starter solenoid. When you hit the key/starter, it should illuminate. If it doesn’t, good chance a safety or neutral switch isn’t satisfied.

Then try this. Make SURE you are in neutral, brakes FIRMLY locked.
Apply 12 volts to that small terminal on the starter. Most times, you can source this 12 volt signal from the big battery post right there on the starter. I have used 2 screwdrivers, each to one of these terminals, then cross them to make a connection. A short jumper wire is even more civilized. Don’t be surprised if it cranks! If the key is off, it probably wont start. If the key is on......
Also, you can test the starter motor and cables by jumping the 2 BIG terminals on the solenoid. You’re gonna get some sparks. Use a couple metal bars, 1/2” bolts, something you don’t want ruined, like your favorite screwdrivers.
If all is good, the starter will whirl but not engage. This means the starter motor itself is probably OK, but there is a problem in the solenoid.
I think you said your test light illuminates when hooked to the big battery terminal on the starter solenoid. That’s good, but then hit the starter. If the light goes out, there is not enough amperage (current) being delivered to run the test light and the starter, (for various reason stated in previous posts) and the starter hogs it all. This is exactly what will happen with a battery with one weak cell.

Please make sure the brakes are set and you are in neutral. You wouldnt be the first guy run down when jumping wires at the starter.