Bigger HST machines.

[LD1]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are and if there would be demand for bigger HST machines?

Seems MFG's have hit a plateau. The MX like is as big as Kubota goes, and 4000 series Deere. Other MFG's stop at the same size class of machine....which seems to be one size/series short of what I'd consider my ideal tractor.

I mow probably 300-400 acres a year with an 8' cutter. And while sometimes I wish for more power with my MX5100....I often times find myself wishing for a physically larger machine.

Sure they make a 4066 Deere or a MX6000 Bota, bit they are the same base machine. I don't see a MX6000 helping me. I already fight keeping it cool mowing just due to the nature of mowing and plugging the radiator. Pushing the SAME engine harder with the same cooling system is only gonna get hotter faster.

But ideally....a 5000 series Deere....like a 5075 or a Kubota M in the 70 HP range would be perfect if HST. Sit higher and the much taller front tires make for a much nicer riding machine when trying to mow 7+ mph.

Anyone got some inside connections at any of the big MFGs and know if this is something they are even considering? Or is this the upper limits for the foreseeable future?

 

[5030]

Parasitic power loss and residual heat eliminates them from bigger machines. IH built one years ago but it never was popular. Bigger machines utilize an IVT or CVT trans or on Kubota's case (medium sized machines, a hydraulic shuttle / wet clutch main transmission. Mowing that much with an 8 foot? Think I'd move up to a bat wing at least.

 

[RickB]

Power shifts are far more efficient than hydro transmissions.

 

[IndyIan]

For mowing like that, why not just get a big cheap 2wd gear tractor? Or I guess much wider mower that puts the speed limitation on pto hp and not field smoothness?

 

[Citydude]

Why the need for HST LD1?

 

[Jchonline]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are and if there would be demand for bigger HST machines?

Seems MFG's have hit a plateau. The MX like is as big as Kubota goes, and 4000 series Deere. Other MFG's stop at the same size class of machine....which seems to be one size/series short of what I'd consider my ideal tractor.

I mow probably 300-400 acres a year with an 8' cutter. And while sometimes I wish for more power with my MX5100....I often times find myself wishing for a physically larger machine.

Sure they make a 4066 Deere or a MX6000 Bota, bit they are the same base machine. I don't see a MX6000 helping me. I already fight keeping it cool mowing just due to the nature of mowing and plugging the radiator. Pushing the SAME engine harder with the same cooling system is only gonna get hotter faster.

But ideally....a 5000 series Deere....like a 5075 or a Kubota M in the 70 HP range would be perfect if HST. Sit higher and the much taller front tires make for a much nicer riding machine when trying to mow 7+ mph.

Anyone got some inside connections at any of the big MFGs and know if this is something they are even considering? Or is this the upper limits for the foreseeable future?

If I were mowing that much, shuttle all the way. There is a reason they dont make larger HSTs.. there is no market. If you need a true farm or utility tractor then it should be geared. If you are doing mostly loader or dirt work, HST is better imo.

 

[newbury]

Heck, wasn't it about 15 years ago that almost everything above 50HP was geared only?

 

[jjp8182]

As noted IH made some larger ones back in the 70's & 80's (my grandfather had one of the IH Hydro 86 tractors - with a front loader) ...and for a lot of the reasons mentioned larger tractor designs have pretty seemed to shy away from hydrostatic transmissions since.

Given many applications for larger tractors involve draft work (where the cons of an HST aren't helpful), and heavier loader applications generally lead to more purpose built machines (e.g. telehandlers, wheel loaders, etc.) I doubt there will be any larger frame tractors with HST coming out any time soon. Not really many applications (that I can think of) where high PTO HP and the level of independent speed control HST provides are really needed.

Higher HP perhaps, just because of advances in engine/combustion technology... but physically larger machines probably not any time soon. Not sure there's enough demand in the horse/hay-grower market for such a tractor..... though that'd probably be were such a tractor would likely make the most sense.

Though given the number of small companies building new purpose built cultivating tracotrs (Oggun Tractor, Tilmor, Tuff-Bilt), a larger HST tractor may not be far off ...that or a more mainstream all electric (though that may depend on well Solectrac does with their tractors).

 

[Diggin It]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are and if there would be demand for bigger HST machines?

Seems MFG's have hit a plateau. The MX like is as big as Kubota goes, and 4000 series Deere. Other MFG's stop at the same size class of machine....which seems to be one size/series short of what I'd consider my ideal tractor.

Isn't that kind of the divider between utility and Ag tractors?

 

[LD1]

Not sure I agree that there is no demand.

20+ years ago the only HST were B-sized and 2000 series Deere sized machines.

Then they upped it to include L and 3000 sized machines.

Then it went to Mx/4000 sized machines.

Just wondering when the next step is. HST is proven technology now....it certainly can't be a physical limitation. Heck....10000 pound 100hp skid loaders are HST.


The "need" for HST is for infinite speed and darn dear instant direction change without levers or buttons. No gears to shift to find the right speed. Not even sure why that is in the realm of discussion as to "why". There is nothing that can hold a candle to HST for what I do. There is no other option where I can go 8mph in thin areas...and slow down to 1-2 mph if I need to without changing gears or flipping levers. Just simply lift off the go pedal. It's as natural as driving a car with an accelerator pedal.

 

[LD1]

Isn't that kind of the divider between utility and Ag tractors?

Depends on what you define as ag.

There was a time when 25hp 2500 pound machines were ag machines.

Now a days....especially in the Midwest.....I don't know anyone that considers anything less than a 6000-7000 series Deere's as ag machines.

Last time I was in the local boys dealer.....they had a m5660. Loved the looks, size, and front tires. I thought man that would be perfect if HST. And the local farmer here just got a 5075 Deere for mowing some of the smaller waterways that he cannot get the 7430 and batwing into. Another machine id consider as perfect....only of it had a hst

 

[LouNY]

An IVT or CVT transmission will work much like the hydo's the AGCO ones seem to be more intuitive to operate.
Also a power shift with a left hand reverser will out perform a hydro.
There are a few larger Ag hydros the IH's have been off the market for many years the older 86 and 26 series.
However the New Holland and Versatile bi-directional tractors were hydos and they are newer then the IH's.

 

[K5lwq]

Combines use HST on 300+HP machines. So it is doable.

 

[Williy]

Yanmar has this 59 hp tractor with a new type of
transmission almost like two transmissions in one YT3 Series | YANMAR Tractor

willy

 

[Jchonline]

HST has more losses, can’t run at a truly consistent speed (for spraying, seeding, etc), overheats with constant PTO field use (due to the inherent inefficiency….energy is given off as heat). What use case do you have for a HST for field work?

 

[ptsg]

....

I mow probably 300-400 acres a year with an 8' cutter. And while sometimes I wish for more power with my MX5100....I often times find myself wishing for a physically larger machine.
...

A geared MX5100 wouldn't give you the feeling of needing more HP that the HST MX5100 gives you.

 

[ptsg]

HST has more losses, can’t run at a truly consistent speed (for spraying, seeding, etc), overheats with constant PTO field use (due to the inherent inefficiency….energy is given off as heat). What use case do you have for a HST for field work?

Exactly. Plus a HST tractor can barely move on High range, even on flat places, as proven several times here on TBN, so that alone pretty much rules out the HST on bigger tractors. That alone would be a no no for driving on the road, let alone pull a trailer full of hay or logs or something.

 

[Jchonline]

We have a M7060 on the cattle farm and I have my M62…so we have a pretty decent perspective. My M62 is awesome for lots of things, and better than the 7060 in many ways. But mowing, harrowing, plowing, raking, tedding, spraying, seeding…no way. I would take the 7060 over it in a heartbeat. Even with a cruise control….there is no comparison For these tasks.

 

[RickB]

Combines use HST on 300+HP machines. So it is doable.

Combines don't earn their keep by applying horsepower to tractive effort. A better argument would involve high hp hydrostatic drive dozers. But they spend 50% of their time backing up and accomplishing very little. Hydrostatic transmissions lack the efficiency the market demands in applications where high duty cycles and high drawbar loads exist. So nobody builds them.

 

[K5lwq]

Combines don't earn their keep by applying horsepower to tractive effort. A better argument would involve high hp hydrostatic drive dozers. But they spend 50% of their time backing up.

Agreed. But I am not arguing just pointing out it can be done. I personally prefer geared tractors.