410 Backhoe reverser clutches slipping

[unimog_jason]

Correct, I guess I should have pointed that out in my initial post.

Based on what I've read, 150 is idea, 100 is acceptable, (especially if you consider the age of the machine).

I assume I'm losing flow somewhere, just need to find it.

 

[unimog_jason]

After a bunch of digging and further testing I've have the following update:

- Chased down all of the relief and surge valves in the system and everything looks ok
- Pulled the shuttle valve off and inspected everything inside of it, no issues found.
- Replaced all of the gaskets and seals in the unit and nothing leaks.
- While I had the valve off, I applied air to the clutches and both would engage.
- Both clutches would leak a small amount of air when engaged and went I shut the air supply off, it took a couple seconds for the pressure to bleed out.
- Given that oil is more viscous than air, I'm going to assume this is ok.
- Put everything back together and can get 50 PSI, but nothing more.
- When I move a cylinder, the low pressure side drops to near 0.

At this point in time I'm pretty certain I have a charge pump that is in need of a re & re.

Having come to this point, I asked myself why the clutches were able to lock up when I bought the unit, but over the course of 20-30 hours of operating time, it went to the point of not even being able to move.

One thing I realized that I was adding oil to the system as it does leak a fair amount. I suspect that the oil the machine had in it was quite thick and the oil I've been adding is AW32. I bet as I diluted the viscosity, my low pressure was dropping and eventually bottomed out.

At this point I figure I'm at a crossroads, do I bite the bullet and gut the machine to replace the pump, or spend a $100 on AW68, drain the AW32 I just put in it and see if the bandaid will get it moving again? With either option, the oil I just put in there is being dumped, so that is a sunk expense anyway.

At this point, I think spending the $100 on the AW68 is probably the most logical option unless someone can think of something I'm not thinking of.

 

[Tx Jim]

Have you checked to be sure hyd filter relief & surge relief valves are seating properly & not stuck open?

 

[unimog_jason]

Have you checked to be sure hyd filter relief & surge relief valves are seating properly & not stuck open?

Pulled them out and nothing looked out of place. Springs were in good shape, nothing stuck in the seat area.

 

[Zebrafive]

The oil change might help.............a little. Do you have way to drain into a clean container and save if that does not work? If so, that would not be a major expense, you would want to fill with fresh/clean oil after a split, so you will be buying oil either way.
I would price the parts to replace the transmission pump and decide if the machine is worth the expense. If not sell and cut your loss.

 

[unimog_jason]

The oil change might help.............a little. Do you have way to drain into a clean container and save if that does not work? If so, that would not be a major expense, you would want to fill with fresh/clean oil after a split, so you will be buying oil either way.
I would price the parts to replace the transmission pump and decide if the machine is worth the expense. If not sell and cut your loss.

I can capture the oil, but for the expense of it and the risk of introducing more dirt, I'd probably just dump is on a brush pile and light it up.

To re & re the shuttle transmission myself would probably be $1000, the seals are cheap, clutch disks are not too expensive and I probably wouldn't need to replace all of them. The wild card is the pump. I found a new aftermarket unit that may work for $300, there are used units out there, the worst case is a new part from Deere for $3000. The pump gears appear to be available from Deere, so assuming the housing isn't messed up, that could be an option.

End of the day, I have enough into the machine that I can't walk away from it, but not enough that if I put the parts into it, I can't recover most of the expense should I sell it.

The nice thing about this machine is that the shuttle is the most complex part of it all. If I were to get it back to 100%, I would have little doubt the rest of the machine will be reliable for as long as I own it and beyond.

I've been looking at oil charts and it would appear an AW 32 is about equal to SAE 15 where as AW 68 is SAE 20 and AW 100 is SAE 30.

I'm to the point where I think $100 in thicker oil will likely get me to where I can get the machine moving again and do some work I need to get done. Once those jobs are out of the way, I can pull the shuttle apart over the winter/spring and do the re & re at that point.

 

[Zebrafive]

The oil change would be the cheapest "maybe" fix. So for $100 verses $1000 or more, plus a lot of time, worth a try.

I have not shortage of brush, old downed wood, and stumps to burn too.

 

[unimog_jason]

To close out this long saga for anyone else who may find this in the future and are trying to solve a similar issue, here's where I ended up.

I ended up splitting the tractor again, pulling out the reverser unit and pretty much replaced every seal inside of it and checked over everything else.

The clutch plates looked good so I reused them, but my charge pump had seen better days.

The 410 is a 40 GPM system and uses a charge pump that is unique to just that model of 410 and nothing else. Those pumps are rare and very expensive, but an aftermarket charge pump from an ag tractor is a fraction of the cost. I did some part number checking and the 301, 401 & 310A all used the same charge pump as the ag tractors and all those machines are 30 GPM.

I opted to roll the dice and if the small charge pump ended up starving the high pressure pump, I would replace it with a 30 GPM pump from a 310A.

Once I put everything back together, things worked better, but still had low pressure and some slipage.

Did some more reading and found a post on a forum where someone mentioned about verifying your linkages. I pulled out the manual and in there, there was mention of adjusting the clutch rod to a certain point, turn out 4 more turns and set to 130 PSI on the test port.

In the end, my rod was too short and once I set the rod correctly I was able to get 130 PSI on the gauge. The clutch rod is spring loaded at the top end of the stroke and you need to be up against the spring for everything to work correctly.

The system test in the manual call for putting the transmission in 8th gear, forward and release the clutch. If then engine dies within 5 seconds, you are good. Mine will die in about two seconds at idle.

It's been a long jouney, but I'm glad it's fixed.

Moral of the story, refer to the manual.