Hydrogen infrastructure

[3930dave]

It's been in the back of my mind for a while. Had a (real-world) conversation recently, that moved this topic fwd in my cranium....

Stake in the ground here, for review......

Hydrogen fuel specialist to open £2 million refuelling station in Aberdeen

Rgds, D.

 

[gsganzer]

It will be interesting to see if hydrogen fueled ICE's get a foot hold. I can see lots of safety issues with compressed gas and suspect it's a large reason why LNG or LPG (and their infrastructure) have never gained a larger popularity in the US.

I've also been hearing about ammonia fuels, specifically green ammonia. Again, I think the hazards might be their downfall.

I can possibly see many of our natural gas power plants swapping to hydrogen or green ammonia.

That being said, electric cars aren't going to work for everything, so there will need to be some type of fuel for mobile applications. Maybe gasoline and diesel won't be going away quite as soon as our politicians think.

I see the amount of infrastructure required for us to go to all electric vehicles as staggering. You're not talking about a single 30-40 amp charging station per dwelling. The reality is probably the need for 2-3 charging stations per household.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Green ammonia is not a thing, thanks to nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide is one of the major components of photochemical smog.

 

[gsganzer]

Green ammonia is not a thing, thanks to nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide is one of the major components of photochemical smog.

Larry, here's a link to ammonia as a fuel source. It appears they use it to carry the hydrogen, because it's hydrogen dense, and it could also be used in fuel cells.

Ammonia- Fuel of the Future

 

[Root Cause]

Several global companies have bailed out on hydrogen development in the past couple of years. The investment is mind-boggling with no guarantee if or when a robust, mass-produced fuel cell will become available.

Meanwhile, investments in battery development continue forward.

I hope some company breaks through the hydrogen fuel barrier but if it happened today, it will be years before engines will be affordable.

 

[Hay Dude]

It will be interesting to see if hydrogen fueled ICE's get a foot hold. I can see lots of safety issues with compressed gas and suspect it's a large reason why LNG or LPG (and their infrastructure) have never gained a larger popularity in the US.

I've also been hearing about ammonia fuels, specifically green ammonia. Again, I think the hazards might be their downfall.

I can possibly see many of our natural gas power plants swapping to hydrogen or green ammonia.

That being said, electric cars aren't going to work for everything, so there will need to be some type of fuel for mobile applications. Maybe gasoline and diesel won't be going away quite as soon as our politicians think.

I see the amount of infrastructure required for us to go to all electric vehicles as staggering. You're not talking about a single 30-40 amp charging station per dwelling. The reality is probably the need for 2-3 charging stations per household.

Saw quite a few NG filling stations in CO last week.

 

[Root Cause]

It's been in the back of my mind for a while. Had a (real-world) conversation recently, that moved this topic fwd in my cranium....

Stake in the ground here, for review......

Hydrogen fuel specialist to open £2 million refuelling station in Aberdeen

Rgds, D.

Hydrogen fuel cells are in the U.S. and in service on a very limited basis. Safety is a concern but there are obstacles still in the way. The cost to develop is mind-boggling and has driven off several global companies as no one yet has found answers to these issues that I know of at this time.

 

[gsganzer]

Hydrogen fuel cells are in the U.S. and in service on a very limited basis. Safety is a concern but there are obstacles still in the way. The cost to develop is mind-boggling and has driven off several global companies as no one yet has found answers to these issues that I know of at this time.

I'm not making this political, because both parties are at fault. But it probably doesn't help when our politicians fail to provide stable leadership or policy positions. Who wants to invest million/billions when the wind is likely to blow from a different direction at each election cycle?

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Hydrogen in compressed gas state is far more dangerous than any of the other potential and existing fuel gases. It also has the problem of short range like propane and CNG. It also requires a heavier storage vessel due to much higher pressures need to keep it gaseous. Real solution to these liquefiable gasses to increase range is to store in a liquid state which to date is apparently not strongly considered viable by the NFPA, ASME, and SAE. Liquifying is several times more costly than gas compression which then requires an expansion system to convert to gas for use in internal combustion engines. These all could be usable in both gasoline and diesel engines which all run on material in a gaseous state when injected into the system. There are many new rotary engine innovations entering the market that have great potential to use these gaseous products. Hydrogen does not release and harmful by products into the environment and have a very low weight to horsepower factor.

In the current economic and existing infrastructure fields electric cars do not seem to be viable. Where is all the additional capacity going to come from? Still has to be fossil fuel today for a reliable market supply. I see a great future for nuclear generated power if we can get the environmentalist to back down. Lot's of luck on that one all the same political force.

Ron

 

[3930dave]

Saw quite a few NG filling stations in CO last week.

Many countries around the world use natgas to fuel vehicles, including small ones.

As the cleanest burning HC, it made sense. Not that many years ago (5 give/take) a good friend of mine used an ex-BC Highways F150 as his service truck. 4x4 ext cab, always fully loaded with cable, fittings and tools. IIRC, he was around $10CAD/100km running that on natgas. A real bargain, esp. considering gasoline pricing in BC. That truck may have actually been an XL7700 '150.

Rgds, D.