Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation

   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #91  
I know. Anyone that knows me knows I am NO fan of the tort lawyer, BUT in this case if someone had just taken the time at the dealership to warn this individual (however ignorant he may be) about the dangers of using the bare tractor without any ballast and insisted on selling him at least a ballast box and at least talking to him about loaded tires or wheel weights he might still be alive. In the big scheme of the tractor purchase even for a low end tractor like the 3038e, the additional couple hundred bucks for a stinking ballast box might have saved him. At least he would have had the chance to think a little about it.

We don't know what exactly happened and under what circumstances he rolled his tractor over. I can guess. My guess would be he lifted a load with the FEL, and he had the loader bucket well above the hood of the tractor like all NEW tractor owners do (because they are ignorant of the dangers) and he turned the tractor on slightly uneven ground or the high side tire found a protruding rock or the low side tire found a hole and the tractor overturned. He probably wasn't wearing a seat belt, and we don't know about the ROPS, but in any case he became trapped under the tractor and was crushed.

How many pictures of rolled over tractors have we seen here on this forum? Plenty, that's how many. And where is the loader bucket in relation to the hood of the tractor? Well above it in almost all cases. I grew up as a child around tractors and machinery, and had a pretty good idea of how to stay safe around them, but even I had a few close calls. I never rolled one, but I sure had the rear tires come up off the ground because of improper ballasting. Lessons learned, don't do that again.
I totally agree. Most tractor dealers are sorry. In many ways. An underlying problem is they think they are selling equipment. They are FIRST selling information, or should be. They can move a lot more product that way. And they should be selling service too, which starts with asking and informing.

Dealers cannot overcome all cases of ignorance. That poor guy probably didn't know how much he didn't know. But dealers must not assume the reason a guy hasn't added fluid, wheel weights, ballast is because he already has that covered.

Even if he seemed like someone who wasn't going to spend one penny extra, the salesman might have brought up ballast and even mentioned use of the seatbelt. He might have added to the sale. And saved that guy's life.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #92  
Problems amp up sharply if you're on uneven ground. Some time back, for the first [and hopefully ONLY] time, my Kioti started to tip/roll due to a slight turn and drop from the level; I slammed the loader dump faster than my rear could pucker! (note: pallet of feed; load wasn't raised above the hood) Odd sensation while in a cab!

If one is on even and level ground and going in straight lines then all that's going to happen is a slight tipping (at which point traction is noted to be reduced). It goes BAD when you're NOT on level and even ground (and then compounds when not going in a straight line).

Let's face it, just as there are people who ought not operate an automobile, and do, there are those that ought not operate a tractor (and do). Farms and tractors. Farming is said to be one of the most dangerous jobs, and I suspect that the tractor/equipment part had a lot to do with that.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #93  
You must be really bad at math if you believe counterbalance on the 3PT doesn’t take significant weight off the front tires.

I agree tractors are made for ground engaging work or PTO work and just happen to be an okay frame to use for lifting things.
I already gave an e.g. for breaking a front axle on a tractor much larger than most on this thread will use. It also happens to be a NLA, very hard to find part that negated a large investment the owner made to rebuild the engine beforehand.
On side slopes with a heavy FEL load I can watch my rears and tell if they are heavy on the ground or not so much. Dicey business when/if their not!!!
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #94  
There’s been so many posts here lately by folks asking totally dumb questions (how many grease zeros are on my loader) that are carefully covered in the manual I don’t think many people read them. It’s sad, tractor manuals are generally more useful than most owners manuals.
While your correct (see the question on here as to what outer wrench size are the lug nuts:rolleyes:), my chainsaws came similar manuals that are weak when it comes to real life use. We have all turned the pages on manuals that are lawyered up, to get to the meaty stuff. These big diesel pusher RV's come to mind what with zero training nor a CDL to drive them and also many operated by old farts like me- some of which who were the kids in PE class that couldn't walk and chew gum. Licensing for areas where there ARE many deaths get not much serious solutions as we took driver ed out of schools and focus more on how to parrallel park than highway driving.
Tractors involve zero training for most hobby farmers?
I bought a pedestal fan recently that came with an owners manual written by lawyers not people who need some fresh air...
I use a ballast box-the one sold by Titan Pallets-and filled with rocks hanging on the 3pt arms I've wondered how it compares to rear fluid weights that are further forward. Many loggers around me who use large tractors as loaders seem to use a 55gal drum, pins welded on sides & filled with heavy stuff for rear ballast.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #95  
I built my ballast box out of a failed 60 gallon air compressor. Used it a couple times then gave up. My mower or box blade are already on & just as heavy. Less maneuverable, but not enough to matter 99% of the time.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #96  
I have a small tractor and even with my 700+ lb ballast bucket, which is further out due to the QH (thereby increasing the leverage) I still can feel the strain on the tractor if I lift a large load. I also look at the front tires as I lift to see if they squat.

With the BH attached I can lift large loads without noticing (my manual says the BH weighs 1,200 lbs IIRC). The frame mounted BH actually increases the ballast effect by acting as a giant lever pivoting on the rear mount and levering up on the front mount (under the center of the tractor).

Also, IMO, loaded tires are great for ground engagement/traction and stability but do nothing to reduce weight on the front axel.

And FWIW when mowing with my finish mower it is much more stable and less top-heavy if I remove the FEL. (tires are NOT loaded)
When I bought my TYM 474 from J & G equipment in Bardstown, Ky, Rim Guard loaded rear tires & tractor delivery to your property are automatic. They have been in business selling tractors for many years and fully understand the importance of ballesting. Since 95% of my use is in woods he said No to front tire ballesting in my case. My previous Kubota had loaded rear & front tires. Smaller rural towns with well established, knowledgeable dealers are especially helpful to newer tractor owners. Proper ballest, weight distribution, ROPS with seat belt usage, transporting loads close to ground, and feeling the tractor behavior in the seat of your pants are all critical to safety. I learned the importance of weight & balance flying small single engine airplanes. Same physics apply in tractor operation.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation
  • Thread Starter
#97  
When I started this thread, I had no idea it would get such a great response. I'm learning a lot by reading the posts.

I do have a number of points I want to make. Some of those responding seem to be pretty disdainful of us new tractor owners and the fact that we do not magically know everything there is to know about operating a tractor safely. Number 1: I DID read my Kubota manual......in detail.....3-4 times before I used the machine, and unlike in a John Deere manual, there is no mention anywhere in it of the amount of ballast needed when operating the FEL, particularly when operating it near the limits in the specs. It does give the maximum weights of 3PH implements, but there is not a corresponding reference to those implements being used as ballast and how much ballast is needed to safely use the FEL. Number 2: According to the specs, everything I have lifted is below the specified limits (including the weight of my fork attachment) of the machine and I have never lifted any of these loads more than 4' above the ground. The specs refer to the limits lifting to maximum height and I have very intentionally never approached that height because I do have a fundamental understanding of the physics, and the weights I have lifted have all been below the weight limits specified at maximum height, so I wrongly presumed that I was safe since I was not approaching the maximum height and because I had loaded tires. Well, that was a mistake and I won't make that assumption again. I have been VERY careful moving this material around.....I'm talking moving material 30'-50' on a flat gravel area with the FEL 1' off the ground while I'm moving it, traveling very slowly, so I'm not being reckless here. Number 3: For 20 years I owned a millwork manufacturing business with 40 employees, a 50,000 square foot plant, multiple CNC machines, a bridge crane, and 3 forklifts. I had regular safety training for my employees, regular forklift safety training provided by my forklift dealer, and in 20 years, never had an OSHA reportable accident or injury. I am VERY safety conscious. But there is no such safety training that I am aware of that is available for new tractor owners. I would gladly pay $500 for a day of training on how to use my machine in the safest way possible, but there is no such hands-on, ass-in-the-seat training like that out there anywhere that I've been able to find, and I've looked. I resent the implication that we newbies are dumb goobers who should be nowhere near a tractor. I could probably teach people a few things about operating industrial woodworking equipment safely because I have a lot of experience with it and I welcome questions from new shop owners and help them whenever I can. I'm not a farmer and I don't have a thousand acres and I didn't grow up with tractors. But I'm not an idiot and I have my own little 11 acres and I have my 800' driveway and I need to maintain those things......and I need a tractor to do that. And I'm trying to do it as safely as possible.....and there are few resources beyond safety manuals, available to us. And the safety manuals do not remotely compare to ass-in-the-seat training....which is unavailable......and that's why I come to this forum; because there are a lot of experienced, knowledgeable people who try to help us out. So I, and I'm sure the other newbies would appreciate those experienced members who are more concerned with disparaging those of us trying to learn than with helping us stay safe with substantive advice, just take your ego and move on to the next thread. And to those who have been so generous in offering their helpful advice, THANK YOU very much.

I do wish there was a tractor stability load chart like the attached forklift stability load chart. Does anyone know if there is such a thing? And I've been thinking about the two-pencil discussion.......once the rear wheels get light, doesn't all the weight of the tractor and load shift to the front axel? And correspondingly, if you had a heavy 3PH implement or if the rear implement got caught and stopped the tractor and lifted the front end, all the weight of the tractor is then on the rear axel. So when you have a heavy load on the front axle but the rear axel is still carrying some of the weight, what is the proportional distribution of the weight of the machine + load on the 2 axles?
 

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   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #98  
When I started this thread, I had no idea it would get such a great response. I'm learning a lot by reading the posts.

I do have a number of points I want to make. Some of those responding seem to be pretty disdainful of us new tractor owners and the fact that we do not magically know everything there is to know about operating a tractor safely. Number 1: I DID read my Kubota manual......in detail.....3-4 times before I used the machine, and unlike in a John Deere manual, there is no mention anywhere in it of the amount of ballast needed when operating the FEL, particularly when operating it near the limits in the specs. It does give the maximum weights of 3PH implements, but there is not a corresponding reference to those implements being used as ballast and how much ballast is needed to safely use the FEL. Number 2: According to the specs, everything I have lifted is below the specified limits (including the weight of my fork attachment) of the machine and I have never lifted any of these loads more than 4' above the ground. The specs refer to the limits lifting to maximum height and I have very intentionally never approached that height because I do have a fundamental understanding of the physics, and the weights I have lifted have all been below the weight limits specified at maximum height, so I wrongly presumed that I was safe since I was not approaching the maximum height and because I had loaded tires. Well, that was a mistake and I won't make that assumption again. I have been VERY careful moving this material around.....I'm talking moving material 30'-50' on a flat gravel area with the FEL 1' off the ground while I'm moving it, traveling very slowly, so I'm not being reckless here. Number 3: For 20 years I owned a millwork manufacturing business with 40 employees, a 50,000 square foot plant, multiple CNC machines, a bridge crane, and 3 forklifts. I had regular safety training for my employees, regular forklift safety training provided by my forklift dealer, and in 20 years, never had an OSHA reportable accident or injury. I am VERY safety conscious. But there is no such safety training that I am aware of that is available for new tractor owners. I would gladly pay $500 for a day of training on how to use my machine in the safest way possible, but there is no such hands-on, ass-in-the-seat training like that out there anywhere that I've been able to find, and I've looked. I resent the implication that we newbies are dumb goobers who should be nowhere near a tractor. I could probably teach people a few things about operating industrial woodworking equipment safely because I have a lot of experience with it and I welcome questions from new shop owners and help them whenever I can. I'm not a farmer and I don't have a thousand acres and I didn't grow up with tractors. But I'm not an idiot and I have my own little 11 acres and I have my 800' driveway and I need to maintain those things......and I need a tractor to do that. And I'm trying to do it as safely as possible.....and there are few resources beyond safety manuals, available to us. And the safety manuals do not remotely compare to ass-in-the-seat training....which is unavailable......and that's why I come to this forum; because there are a lot of experienced, knowledgeable people who try to help us out. So I, and I'm sure the other newbies would appreciate those experienced members who are more concerned with disparaging those of us trying to learn than with helping us stay safe with substantive advice, just take your ego and move on to the next thread. And to those who have been so generous in offering their helpful advice, THANK YOU very much.

I do wish there was a tractor stability load chart like the attached forklift stability load chart. Does anyone know if there is such a thing? And I've been thinking about the two-pencil discussion.......once the rear wheels get light, doesn't all the weight of the tractor and load shift to the front axel? And correspondingly, if you had a heavy 3PH implement or if the rear implement got caught and stopped the tractor and lifted the front end, all the weight of the tractor is then on the rear axel. So when you have a heavy load on the front axle but the rear axel is still carrying some of the weight, what is the proportional distribution of the weight of the machine + load on the 2 axles?
I agree that some times veteran members have a bad habit of belittling/judgmental to someone who is asking a question. Some of us use these forums to gather information; because, we don't know everything.

I also agree that no where in Kubotas' manual does it give direct correlation for rear weight for loader.
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #99  
Number 1: I DID read my Kubota manual......in detail.....3-4 times before I used the machine, and unlike in a John Deere manual, there is no mention anywhere in it of the amount of ballast needed when operating the FEL, particularly when operating it near the limits in the specs. It does give the maximum weights of 3PH implements, but there is not a corresponding reference to those implements being used as ballast and how much ballast is needed to safely use the FEL.
So anytime a manual gives an exact weight four a counterbalance they are very likely making the assumption you are on level ground and probably not moving. I've never seen a deere manual with specified ballast needed for lifting but the last one I looked at pre-dated DVDs...and cell phones...and personal computers. So between my bad memory and the years maybe it was in there but I don't recall it.

Number 3: For 20 years I owned a millwork manufacturing business with 40 employees, a 50,000 square foot plant, multiple CNC machines, a bridge crane, and 3 forklifts. I had regular safety training for my employees, regular forklift safety training provided by my forklift dealer, and in 20 years, never had an OSHA reportable accident or injury. I am VERY safety conscious. But there is no such safety training that I am aware of that is available for new tractor owners. I would gladly pay $500 for a day of training on how to use my machine in the safest way possible, but there is no such hands-on, ass-in-the-seat training like that out there anywhere that I've been able to find, and I've looked. I resent the implication that we newbies are dumb goobers who should be nowhere near a tractor. I could probably teach people a few things about operating industrial woodworking equipment safely because I have a lot of experience with it and I welcome questions from new shop owners and help them whenever I can. I'm not a farmer and I don't have a thousand acres and I didn't grow up with tractors. But I'm not an idiot and I have my own little 11 acres and I have my 800' driveway and I need to maintain those things......and I need a tractor to do that. And I'm trying to do it as safely as possible.....and there are few resources beyond safety manuals, available to us. And the safety manuals do not remotely compare to ass-in-the-seat training....which is unavailable......and that's why I come to this forum; because there are a lot of experienced, knowledgeable people who try to help us out. So I, and I'm sure the other newbies would appreciate those experienced members who are more concerned with disparaging those of us trying to learn than with helping us stay safe with substantive advice, just take your ego and move on to the next thread. And to those who have been so generous in offering their helpful advice, THANK YOU very much.
Shoot, millwork? I could probably get in there and wrap myself around a lathe faster than you could stop me. I can see how the same is true for tractors to the "newbs", mater of fact I think it's been proven over and over in news articles and horror stories. I never thought about a class, I already know everything but I even would be interested in taking one, you know, for science. You should send that comment in, I'm sure many dealerships would be glad to have an extra cash flow and manufacturers could make a good show for their insurance folks about how they improve safety.
I do wish there was a tractor stability load chart like the attached forklift stability load chart. Does anyone know if there is such a thing? And I've been thinking about the two-pencil discussion.......once the rear wheels get light, doesn't all the weight of the tractor and load shift to the front axel? And correspondingly, if you had a heavy 3PH implement or if the rear implement got caught and stopped the tractor and lifted the front end, all the weight of the tractor is then on the rear axel. So when you have a heavy load on the front axle but the rear axel is still carrying some of the weight, what is the proportional distribution of the weight of the machine + load on the 2 axles?
So as I mentioned to the first question these charts have to assume you're lifting on a level surface, you're lifting straight up, probably not moving. None of that is likely to be true for most applications with a tractor. You'll have a tire in a hole, you'll be facing down hill already trying to lift that fence post out, you're lifting the bale up to to put it in the feeder with two wheels on 12" of accumulated manure. A tractor loader unlike the forklift pushes the weight away from the front wheels as it lifts to a certain height then pulls it back closer maybe even over the front wheels. We also move on tractors a lot while, maybe not ideal or something we should do, but we adjust loads on the move and even pick things up moving (cleaning bales of a field comes to mind). I wouldn't want the liability of saying "ohh yeah, you put 437 lbs on the 3PT and you can lift max load with the FEL safely" vs the forklift which we are 99% safe in assuming the conditions and stability of a lift based on the intended use of the forks (warehouse, lot, off pavement, off road).
 
   / Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation #100  
When I started this thread, I had no idea it would get such a great response. I'm learning a lot by reading the posts.

I do have a number of points I want to make. Some of those responding seem to be pretty disdainful of us new tractor owners and the fact that we do not magically know everything there is to know about operating a tractor safely. Number 1: I DID read my Kubota manual......in detail.....3-4 times before I used the machine, and unlike in a John Deere manual, there is no mention anywhere in it of the amount of ballast needed when operating the FEL, particularly when operating it near the limits in the specs. It does give the maximum weights of 3PH implements, but there is not a corresponding reference to those implements being used as ballast and how much ballast is needed to safely use the FEL. Number 2: According to the specs, everything I have lifted is below the specified limits (including the weight of my fork attachment) of the machine and I have never lifted any of these loads more than 4' above the ground. The specs refer to the limits lifting to maximum height and I have very intentionally never approached that height because I do have a fundamental understanding of the physics, and the weights I have lifted have all been below the weight limits specified at maximum height, so I wrongly presumed that I was safe since I was not approaching the maximum height and because I had loaded tires. Well, that was a mistake and I won't make that assumption again. I have been VERY careful moving this material around.....I'm talking moving material 30'-50' on a flat gravel area with the FEL 1' off the ground while I'm moving it, traveling very slowly, so I'm not being reckless here. Number 3: For 20 years I owned a millwork manufacturing business with 40 employees, a 50,000 square foot plant, multiple CNC machines, a bridge crane, and 3 forklifts. I had regular safety training for my employees, regular forklift safety training provided by my forklift dealer, and in 20 years, never had an OSHA reportable accident or injury. I am VERY safety conscious. But there is no such safety training that I am aware of that is available for new tractor owners. I would gladly pay $500 for a day of training on how to use my machine in the safest way possible, but there is no such hands-on, ass-in-the-seat training like that out there anywhere that I've been able to find, and I've looked. I resent the implication that we newbies are dumb goobers who should be nowhere near a tractor. I could probably teach people a few things about operating industrial woodworking equipment safely because I have a lot of experience with it and I welcome questions from new shop owners and help them whenever I can. I'm not a farmer and I don't have a thousand acres and I didn't grow up with tractors. But I'm not an idiot and I have my own little 11 acres and I have my 800' driveway and I need to maintain those things......and I need a tractor to do that. And I'm trying to do it as safely as possible.....and there are few resources beyond safety manuals, available to us. And the safety manuals do not remotely compare to ass-in-the-seat training....which is unavailable......and that's why I come to this forum; because there are a lot of experienced, knowledgeable people who try to help us out. So I, and I'm sure the other newbies would appreciate those experienced members who are more concerned with disparaging those of us trying to learn than with helping us stay safe with substantive advice, just take your ego and move on to the next thread. And to those who have been so generous in offering their helpful advice, THANK YOU very much.

I do wish there was a tractor stability load chart like the attached forklift stability load chart. Does anyone know if there is such a thing? And I've been thinking about the two-pencil discussion.......once the rear wheels get light, doesn't all the weight of the tractor and load shift to the front axel? And correspondingly, if you had a heavy 3PH implement or if the rear implement got caught and stopped the tractor and lifted the front end, all the weight of the tractor is then on the rear axel. So when you have a heavy load on the front axle but the rear axel is still carrying some of the weight, what is the proportional distribution of the weight of the machine + load on the 2 axles?
Did you check the loader manual? I haven't looked at your particular model but in the past the ballast info was in the loader manual, not he tractor manual.
 
 
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