First issue with 1430, weak drive power.

[tommott77]

Hi all, so i’ve got my first issue with my 1430. Just some background, I bought the last diesel 1430 that was the showroom floor model. Tractor shows 17 hours, but the hour meter was unplugged when it arrived, so it could definitely have some more hours than that. It’s still on its original oil and filter.

A couple days ago the tractor did not want to start in upper 20° weather after the first couple tries. Seemed like a weak battery as the starter solenoid was clicking but the motor wasn’t turning over. About the fifth try the motor turned over and the tractor started reasonably well as it typically does in these temps. Upon driving I immediately noticed a problem as the drive power was very weak. It would hardly react to any initial input of the treddle pedal in forward or reverse. It seemed to get better as the tractor warmed (oil perhaps) up, but still did not have the instant torque that I was used to upon initial input of the pedal.

Yesterday iwe had temps in the teens and 20 most of the day. Again tractor wouldn’t start in the same fashion for most of the day. At the end of the day when it finally got to about 32° it started. Again the drive power was severely compromised. It would take about 3 of 4 seconds of any type of input pedal input to get the tractor to move at all in reverse. I was just moving it around so didn’t get a chance to see how it did once warmed up.

I’m assuming my first step will be to change the oil/filter. I believe they call for changing the oil at 50 hours. What type and weight oil do most people use recommend? Up here in the NC mountains it can get into the teens or lower and still have some 90° summer days.

Aside from the oil/filter anything else I should be checking out? I assume the drive system is 100% a hydraulic circuit and the battery weakness should not have any effect on it? It’s weird that the issue started as soon as the battery started struggling, I guess it’s possible that the battery/start issue can be a byproduct of an motor/pump issue and/or compromised oil though.

 

[LittleBill21]

you checked the hydro fluid level? does it sound different, like the hydro's are going into relief?

 

[tommott77]

I checked the oil when it first happened. Oil level looked correct. Oil looked very clean. I did notice that the oil cap was a bit loose, was worried that some condensation could’ve worked it’s way into the oil.

Nothing really sounds different and it doesn’t seem to be in relief.

 

[m5040]

Did you notice that when you let off the treadle the tractor was slow to respond (stop)? If so you are not letting it warm up enough. The entire hyd system is designed to operate with a certain viscosity oil and when cold like the temps you are describing, you throw off all the engineering. You will need to keep warm or give it 5 to 10 min to "thin out" the oil. Or change to a lower viscosity oil only for winter.
Your electrical problem sounds like a bad relay. Find and replace. PT should send you one for free.

 

[tommott77]

Did you notice that when you let off the treadle the tractor was slow to respond (stop)? If so you are not letting it warm up enough. The entire hyd system is designed to operate with a certain viscosity oil and when cold like the temps you are describing, you throw off all the engineering. You will need to keep warm or give it 5 to 10 min to "thin out" the oil. Or change to a lower viscosity oil only for winter.
Your electrical problem sounds like a bad relay. Find and replace. PT should send you one for free.

That was my initial reaction. I had previously ran the tractor around Thanksgiving in similar temps and it didn’t act like this though. The other day it did seem to be at or close to full power once warmed up. Even then though the pedal was still slow to react and didn’t have the torque from initial pedal input that I was used to. From playing around with it that day it seemed i could kind of “trick” and keep constant torque out of the pedal by quickly going back and forth in forward/reverse once it felt like hydraulic pressure had built up in the system. When I would slow down or come to a stop, and it felt like the pressure went back down to idle, it would be slow to react again.

What type/brand oils do most folks use/recommend? Do most people switch oil weights from winter to summer?

 

[ponytug]

Sorry to hear that you are having issues!

Two things occur to me; 1) cold oil, which always makes for sluggish response, 2) that there might be a small air leak in the suction side of the pumps. For #2, start up the engine and look through the oil filler port in good sunshine or a bright light. If you have bubbles or foam, you have an air leak and you want to get after the issue pronto. Most likely it is that the suction oil filter is loose or there is a particle of something on the gasket. However, as it is a new machine, I would also check all the hoses connections and see if they can be tightened.

At 17 hours, it wouldn't hurt to go over your hose fittings and tighten everything up.

The factory oil should be good for hundreds of hours if you don't get dirt or water into it. I change it when it changes color.

All the best,

Peter

 

[seville009]

I use 15w40 oil in my skidsteer, tractor, and zero turn mower (just so happens the specs for each call for that oil weight).

use it all year (Northeast - 100 degrees to negative 20) (if it's colder than 20 below zero, I don't go outside.......)

key to starting/operating in cold temps is (1) strong battery (highest cca you can find), and (2) let it idle and warm up for ten to fifteen minutes (until you hear the engine running nice and smooth).

actual movement with the hydro pedals tends to be slower in the colder weather; not a huge amount, but a little.

 

[SpringHollow]

If my tractor is that cold, I let it warm up first because the hydraulics will be sluggish including a slower response to the pedals.

 

[scotts562]

you might try bleeding the hydraulic system just to make sure there air didn't somehow get into the system. It could also be ice in the hydraulic lines.

I am not familiar with the newer 1430's. Does it have a hydroback with a cable attached to the foot pedals or does it have a valve at the foot pedal?

My older machine has the cable and loves to break the bolt on the pump end of the cable. When that bolt is going bad it acts very similar to what you describe. If the newer machines have the valve, disregard this.

I suspect your starting issue is related to your hydraulic issue. When you hit the starter, it is also turning the hydraulics. It sounds like something in the hydraulic system is not letting fluid move as it should which is putting more resistance against the starter. To help troubleshoot you could try getting all four wheels off the ground and see if they are trying to move when you try starting the engine. Might also take a look at the pto circuit since that is about the only place the electric and hydraulic systems come together.

It is interesting that you are having to "trick" the hydraulics to maintain pressure even when warm.

 

[RegL]

Hi all, so i’ve got my first issue with my 1430. Just some background, I bought the last diesel 1430 that was the showroom floor model. Tractor shows 17 hours, but the hour meter was unplugged when it arrived, so it could definitely have some more hours than that. It’s still on its original oil and filter.

A couple days ago the tractor did not want to start in upper 20° weather after the first couple tries. Seemed like a weak battery as the starter solenoid was clicking but the motor wasn’t turning over. About the fifth try the motor turned over and the tractor started reasonably well as it typically does in these temps. Upon driving I immediately noticed a problem as the drive power was very weak. It would hardly react to any initial input of the treddle pedal in forward or reverse. It seemed to get better as the tractor warmed (oil perhaps) up, but still did not have the instant torque that I was used to upon initial input of the pedal.

Yesterday iwe had temps in the teens and 20 most of the day. Again tractor wouldn’t start in the same fashion for most of the day. At the end of the day when it finally got to about 32° it started. Again the drive power was severely compromised. It would take about 3 of 4 seconds of any type of input pedal input to get the tractor to move at all in reverse. I was just moving it around so didn’t get a chance to see how it did once warmed up.

I’m assuming my first step will be to change the oil/filter. I believe they call for changing the oil at 50 hours. What type and weight oil do most people use recommend? Up here in the NC mountains it can get into the teens or lower and still have some 90° summer days.

Aside from the oil/filter anything else I should be checking out? I assume the drive system is 100% a hydraulic circuit and the battery weakness should not have any effect on it? It’s weird that the issue started as soon as the battery started struggling, I guess it’s possible that the battery/start issue can be a byproduct of an motor/pump issue and/or compromised oil though.

Your 1430 is behaving normally. The one I bought 2012 has behaved that way in the cold since I got it. The older one I had was more responsive. It had a different pump with bigger orifices so cold oil could flow through easier.
Sometimes I put a portable jump box on the battery and use a squirt of starting fluid. ( starting fluid is not a recommendation, just what I do).

 

[MossRoad]

Hi all, so i’ve got my first issue with my 1430. Just some background, I bought the last diesel 1430 that was the showroom floor model. Tractor shows 17 hours, but the hour meter was unplugged when it arrived, so it could definitely have some more hours than that. It’s still on its original oil and filter.

A couple days ago the tractor did not want to start in upper 20° weather after the first couple tries. Seemed like a weak battery as the starter solenoid was clicking but the motor wasn’t turning over. About the fifth try the motor turned over and the tractor started reasonably well as it typically does in these temps. Upon driving I immediately noticed a problem as the drive power was very weak. It would hardly react to any initial input of the treddle pedal in forward or reverse. It seemed to get better as the tractor warmed (oil perhaps) up, but still did not have the instant torque that I was used to upon initial input of the pedal.

Yesterday iwe had temps in the teens and 20 most of the day. Again tractor wouldn’t start in the same fashion for most of the day. At the end of the day when it finally got to about 32° it started. Again the drive power was severely compromised. It would take about 3 of 4 seconds of any type of input pedal input to get the tractor to move at all in reverse. I was just moving it around so didn’t get a chance to see how it did once warmed up.

I’m assuming my first step will be to change the oil/filter. I believe they call for changing the oil at 50 hours. What type and weight oil do most people use recommend? Up here in the NC mountains it can get into the teens or lower and still have some 90° summer days.

Aside from the oil/filter anything else I should be checking out? I assume the drive system is 100% a hydraulic circuit and the battery weakness should not have any effect on it? It’s weird that the issue started as soon as the battery started struggling, I guess it’s possible that the battery/start issue can be a byproduct of an motor/pump issue and/or compromised oil though.

I didn't see if you answered this question or not yet, so forgive me if you already have.

Once you get it started, how long do you let it warm up before trying to move it?

 

[ponytug]

FWIW: I highly recommend the Deutz preheaters that @SpringHollow put me on to. For my 1445, they make a big difference in how fast the engine catches close to freezing.

But yes, with cold oil these tractors are going to be sluggish in all dimensions.

All the best,

Peter

 

[tommott77]

Your 1430 is behaving normally. The one I bought 2012 has behaved that way in the cold since I got it. The older one I had was more responsive. It had a different pump with bigger orifices so cold oil could flow through easier.
Sometimes I put a portable jump box on the battery and use a squirt of starting fluid. ( starting fluid is not a recommendation, just what I do).

Thanks for all the responses. I think you’re correct. It was much warmer today pushing close to 50°. Started the tractor, let it warm up a good 15 minutes, and it ran/drove pretty much as normal. Pretty sure that’s just the nature of the beast at this point.

I’ll still plan on changing oil/filter next time i’m up at the property with the tractor. The sticker on the oil tank says 10-40 or 15-40 motor oil. I’ll go with the 10-40 to see if that may improve the warm up performance of the oil.

Any other recommendations on what type of oil to use? Should I be staying away from synthetic? With the lack of moving parts involved is this an instance of cheaper oil is just as good as anything? Sorry, never ran motor oil on tractor hydraulics before.

 

[MossRoad]

I wouldn't change the entire hydraulic oil if it's that new with that few hours. I'm still running the same hydraulic oil that came with my PT425 20 years ago. Every 50 hours (about once per year) I change the hydraulic filter, add a quart of makeup oil (I've been adding Mobile1 xW40, what ever the 40W is) and bleed the system per procedure before running. It's still clear and clean. Never had an analysis done on it. I have around a thousand hours on the machine.

Anytime it's under 40ish degrees, I start the machine and let it run at about 1/3 throttle for around 10 minutes, then cycle the FEL full up and down a couple times, curl/dump the bucket a few times, and off I go.

 

[ponytug]

The difference in viscosity between 5W, 10W, and 15W oil when cold is pretty minimal, as in in maybe one and a half times going from 5W to 15W. Having switched all my oil, I can tell you it made no obvious difference. My personal $0.02 is that if you plan to use it cold a lot, I would put on a Wolverine heater on the hydraulic tank. (Covered at length on other threads here...) Or just do as @MossRoad does and let it warm up for fifteen minutes.

All the best,

Peter

 

[joshlee]

No no no, there is nothing wrong with your 1430 acting slow when it is that cold out. Let it warm up for at least 10 min so the hydraulic oil can warm up. Mine does the same thing.

 

[marrt]

When the oil is that cold, the pump can cavitate (create air bubbles) which will cause a lot of problems if done repeatedly. As others have said, let the tractor warm up for several minutes or use a tank heater. And by several minutes, I mean SEVERAL. Feel the hydro tank with your hand. If it's "not cold," you're good to go. Most Kubota tractors require a minimum of 5 minutes warm up regardless of the temps (I doubt most people are that patient).

As to the hydro oil, I did a detailed analysis once and concluded the best weight was 0W-40. Power Trac may not recommend this oil because it's hard to find historically. As Peter mentioned, oil viscosity is most significant when the oil is cold. You absolutely DON"T want the pump to cavitate from cold oil or a lose hydraulic filter (or any other air leak on the suction side). I asked PT once how tight the filter should be and they basically said "as tight as you can get it." With most normal filter wrenches, I doubt you can get it too tight.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Oil filters as tight as you can get it by hand. Do not use a wrench to tighten. All gasketed filters should be 3/4 turn after gasket contact. If you are leaking you may have another issue. Too high pressure or a warped oil pump plate.

 

[SpringHollow]

I have always had to tighten the filter to extreme tightness (sometimes denting the can) in order to stop air entrainment. I would be thrilled to be able to only hand tighten. Tried both styles of gasket but that did not seem to make a difference. I always oil the gaskets before installing.

 

[ponytug]

I have always had to tighten the filter to extreme tightness (sometimes denting the can) in order to stop air entrainment. I would be thrilled to be able to only hand tighten. Tried both styles of gasket but that did not seem to make a difference. I always oil the gaskets before installing.

I have had similar experiences to you and @marrt. Without mechanically tightening the filter on an oiled gasket, I get air bleeding in, and yes, I have tried both kinds of gaskets as well. Yes, I have also dented a couple of filters. These days, I try to ensure that the strap is right at the upper edge of the filter to reduce denting. I find fitting new gaskets to be a bit of a bear as well as it always seems that the gasket is too large a diameter, but, with perseverance, it goes in eventually.

Terry gave me the same advice to get it on as tight as I could when I had a persistent air leak at my first filter change. But, hey, @woodlandfarms if it works for you, "good on you" as the Aussies say. You must have a heck of hand grip.

All the best,

Peter