Back up Generators - finally looking.

[beowulf]

Our local utility (PG&E) is offering rebates of up to $1,200 for back up generators, so I am looking into that. It looks like most brands qualify- the list is very long. I am considering a dual fuel whole house back up system - likely Generac. I will be making calls today to see what installation will cost, getting recommendations, or if DIY is an option. Running the well when we don't have power is a prime concern (1.5 HP down at 420'). I have a 5500 W Troybilt gas unit that has worked out well when needed to keep fridge and freezer, lights and such going. Likely that I can get information from a local electrician as to what I need and cost, but this is usually my initial go-to stop.
We have not, historically, lost power that often, but now they are shutting things down proactively for weather or fire issues. Suggestions?

 

[5030]

I'm sure this thread will go crazy but, I suggest buying a unit that outputs at leas 33% more than anticipated need. I have a Generac and it's been trouble free, but mine is a diesel (JD engine) and is single and 3 phase and it runs the entire farm feeding from my 500 galloon diesel storage tank. Mine is 30KW. Probably should have bought a 35KW but I didn't. With everything online I'm almost at 30 KW.

 

[grsthegreat]

If your talking standby generator, you might be looking for 50+ weeks after order to get it unless the supplier happens to have some on hand from previous order.

 

[5030]

Seeks to be the norm for about everything except food today. With food, it's just not there at all.

I know for a fact that Kioti dealers must now have a signed sales contract and a deposit to build a unit, if it's not floorplanned. Have a friend who owns a Kioti dealership and he told me.

Regardless, I run Kubota's...lol

 

[bdhsfz6]

Consider your fuel source first.

Propane requires a large tank to provide long term generator operation. Gasoline gets "stale" and can't be stored for extended periods. It could also get scarce during a wide spread outage if gas stations can't pump. Diesel works best for me since I have a 1000 gal fuel oil tank for my furnace.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

I’m considering a PTO unit. Much more affordable than a stand alone unit if you already have a pto. We have a 50k watt at the farm

 

[jaydee325]

Our local utility (PG&E) is offering rebates of up to $1,200 for back up generators, so I am looking into that. It looks like most brands qualify- the list is very long. I am considering a dual fuel whole house back up system - likely Generac. I will be making calls today to see what installation will cost, getting recommendations, or if DIY is an option. Running the well when we don't have power is a prime concern (1.5 HP down at 420'). I have a 5500 W Troybilt gas unit that has worked out well when needed to keep fridge and freezer, lights and such going. Likely that I can get information from a local electrician as to what I need and cost, but this is usually my initial go-to stop.
We have not, historically, lost power that often, but now they are shutting things down proactively for weather or fire issues. Suggestions?

Have you read the fine print of the rebate offer? Do the terms allow them to preferentially shut off power to you in a power shortage or challenge?

A friend of mine installed a whole house backup generator. The utility offered to lower her kW cost a few cents a kW hour if she would agree to be the first disconnected (via smart meter) in a power shortage. She decided the meager savings offered did not make sense for her.

The cost per kW from a generator far exceeds the cost per kW from the utility.

 

[beowulf]

Have you read the fine print of the rebate offer? Do the terms allow them to preferentially shut off power to you in a power shortage or challenge?

A friend of mine installed a whole house backup generator. The utility offered to lower her kW cost a few cents a kW hour if she would agree to be the first disconnected (via smart meter) in a power shortage. She decided the meager savings offered did not make sense for her.

The cost per kW from a generator far exceeds the cost per kW from the utility.

Thanks for the heads up. I will check on that, but I don't think so. I do know that they have a program where they will lower cost for certain choices, but you have to agree to those and I don't think it has anything to do with the rebate. We would not consider this but for the announced plans for proactive shut offs at times. We looked at battery storage as well as we have solar, but are mostly considering a whole house back up system as the batteries we looked at were costly and we were told may not start up our well. The cost to run the generator is not a major concern as it will not be used frequently - hopefully. We just want to feel a bit more prepared. We can afford the whole house system and the rebate just makes it a bit more interesting right now.

 

[RalphVa]

We've a 12.5 kw diesel Isuzu powered generator bought from Central Maine Diesel about 9 1/2 years ago. Plan to do the 10 year service of coolant change and all filters and engine oil change this year. Recently had to run it for 74 hours, and it ran out of fuel at 69! Has a 50 gallon underbelly tank that I thought was 60 gallons but only managed to put 50 back into it. Fuel consumption in the very cold weather was more than double what it was the first 159 hours.

Runs everything but pool, carriage house and 4 ton heat pump. The clothes dryer, hot water heater and a couple other breakers are on circuitry that only allows them on if the generator had room. Had no problems running any of them.

I knew what could be powered from a 4.4 kw generator that I'd used for 2 or 3 years before and went from there. Had two "whole house" generator people come out, and they generally wanted to put in about a 30 kw diesel unit. Our average consumption is 2.5 kw.

We bought a 200 amp panel with auto switchover from GenTran. They also supplied those 4 other circuits that only come on if there's room. The electrician had to call them 2 or 3 times to figure those out.

Cost of ours was about $15,000, $10k for the Isuzu unit.

 

[ponytug]

I can recommend the Generac dealer in Sacramento. They ended up fixing my neighbor's installation after the local Generac installer didn't get the installation right.

If your propane tank is above ground, I would check in Generac's installation tables for how big the tank needs to be at whatever your expected worst case low temperature is. There is a derating of the tank volume for temperature to allow for enough propane boil off.

All the best,

Peter

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Then there is the choice between air cooled and water cooled. Air cooled you have to check the oil daily which is a non starter for us as you have to be physically able.

 

[ericm979]

Thanks for the heads up. I will check on that, but I don't think so. I do know that they have a program where they will lower cost for certain choices, but you have to agree to those and I don't think it has anything to do with the rebate. We would not consider this but for the announced plans for proactive shut offs at times. We looked at battery storage as well as we have solar, but are mostly considering a whole house back up system as the batteries we looked at were costly and we were told may not start up our well. The cost to run the generator is not a major concern as it will not be used frequently - hopefully. We just want to feel a bit more prepared. We can afford the whole house system and the rebate just makes it a bit more interesting right now.

Does the well pump into a tank which feeds the house via gravity?
If so you could use a sub panel and transfer switch to run the well pump every few days or so off a portable generator, and that might let you run off solar and batteries. This probably would not work if you have a pressure tank.

There are some rebate programs for batteries too. You might be able to get in on that.

 

[beowulf]

Does the well pump into a tank which feeds the house via gravity?
If so you could use a sub panel and transfer switch to run the well pump every few days or so off a portable generator, and that might let you run off solar and batteries. This probably would not work if you have a pressure tank.

There are some rebate programs for batteries too. You might be able to get in on that.

Ericm, No. No tank at all. But we are planning that for a second house my daughter is building on our property. And while planning all that (2 tanks, domestic, fire reserve, etc,) I thought that maybe we should get a tank for our well (now consisting of a pump in the hole, controls, pressure switch and pressure tank) because then we could keep that storage tank (say 2500 gallons) somewhat full and have a booster pump after the storage tank to pump into a pressure tank and then if we lost power I could have my portable generator run the booster pump to take water from the storage tank into the pressure tank- which it could easily handle - instead of worrying about starting the pump in the hole. That would also save wear and tear on the pump in the hole as it would not be starting and stopping on a 40-60 lb setting. Anyway, that would be one way to manage the loss of water issue when power went out - for a while anyway.
Still, a whole house generator would solve all the issues - hopefully.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

What does "whole house" mean to you? Dual fuel, to me, means a portable genset. Whole house generators normally are set up with a fixed fuel supply not gasoline, because their fuel requirements are heavy and you have to store a lot of fuel. Whole house units are usually either natural gas, propane, or diesel in that order of preference. Maybe diesel over others if you need farm diesel and typically have a few hundred gallons on hand.

Get a good clamp meter and measure the starting inrush on the well pump, or maybe just use the rule of thumb that starting current is typically about 4x running current. Your 5500 watt genset will start the well pump as long as nothing else is running. Add a 4600w water heater and a couple kw of headroom for lights and entertainment, and you are looking at 12 kw or so. Add a washer, dryer, and electric range, and you are easily into the 20 kw to 25 kw demand, and a generator that will put out 100 amps. It would be a nuisance to try to feed that out of a gas can.

 

[ultrarunner]

PGE has done a 180 on generators from the 1980’s when I bought a 1000 Watt Honda.

For those not familiar PGE sent out notice requiring customers to register generators kept at service address.

When registered the info went into a database for field crews. PGE also sent me a booklet on safe operation which went into great detail on the hazards of back feeding.

I wonder how the new program will tie into areas with planned phase out of small Internal Combustion Engines?

 

[ranger danger]

I've been running my off grid property in the Sierra's for 5 years on a military tactically quiet diesel generator. MEP 803a 10kw nominal with an over rating of 14kw. Uses 5 gallons of diesel every 9 hours at 3/4 output. I recomend it over anything Generac makes!

 

[etpm]

My wife and I live in a 2100 square foot house. The furnace is propane, as is the stove and water heater. We have a fridge and a chest freezer. We are on a well with a 1.5 HP pump. Our 7500 watt generator is oversized. It does not run the whole house but does not need to. We never have the whole house powered up at once. Who needs lights on when the room is not occupied? I'm pretty sure a 5000 watt unit would start the well when either the fridge or freezer was also starting. With LED lighting I am now considering a battery to power some lights, the furnace, internet, phone, and TV. Then intermittent generator use to run the well and charge the batteries. That would use way less fuel.
Eric

 

[grsthegreat]

I installed lots of smaller auto start generators that operate a 8,10,12,16 or 24 space panel, depending on size of generator. Although most,and i mean 80-90%, of the units i service are whole house units, not the partial house systems.

i have a whole house i put in 4 years ago. Replaced a 5,000 watt partial house unit. Never want to go back.

im older, and lazier now. I want my creature comforts. I also dont want the wife to have to go out snd start old generator and manually transfer house like she used to do, if i wasnt home.

i like the mil spec units, i just dont want to mess with diesel. I also want to protect my heated water troughs in barn and pasture. I put alot of $ into these, and a freeze about 5 years ago nearly took them out. My 22kw protects it all, no worries.

plus, i can fix anything on it that could go bad….heck i have all parts in work truck that could go wrong except if the entire unit were to fail (Like a direct lightning strike). I know nothing about a diesel generator. Heck, i feel stressed out if i have to work on my truck or tractor. Diesel engines intimidate me.

 

[Diggin It]

If I could have gotten a diesel auto-start, auto-transfer for nearly the same price, I would have. Diesel fuel is easier for me to get if I run low during a long outage. I've had a number of multi-day outages and areas near me have had more. Any passing storm could take the grid down for days.

I only have a few hours on mine, all from test runs (which I need to do another longer, loaded run), so I can't speak to longevity, durability or reliability. But I like knowing that I won't (shouldn't) have to go outside, tote a portable and cords, try to get it started and have 20-30 gallons of gasoline on hand.

On a long outage, I'll have to monitor my 500 gallon LP tank a lot closer and I'm not wild about the required daily shut down to check oil.

 

[ultrarunner]

I get frequent questions in generators for home use probably since for decades I was the only one with one plus maintain Hospital standby gensets at work.

All want a fully automatic whole house that they never think about which I don't know of any because someone has to think about maintenance.

Rolling out a pull start, extension cords, pulling out the refrigerator from the wall, fueling, etc... are of no interest... except in a few cases after the fact when power was out for a week and the shock of the utility bill for propane or natural gas hit home...

Life is full of tradeoffs...

All I can say is those interested better get on the list as more internal combustion restrictions go into effect.

The sanctioned remedy is massive solar with Battery Backup but the utility is fighting back asking solar owners to pay more in fixed costs even to offset natural gas customers as the infrastructure costs projected to be spread out by a shrinking user base.