Re-establishing Survey Corners and Way Points?

[ultrarunner]

No... thank you taking the time to post as your posts have taught a lot over the years.

Current surveys often affix a metal tag to any protected tree and we'll documented along with topography...

Many a new home construction or addition have been stopped cold due to an existing oak tree... depending on diameter ANY tree is protected except Eucalyptus and Monterey Pine...

I wish I had a way to scan full survey ad lots of good info... also plot plan shows corner of house with exact distance to line which matches my far gate post.

Long ago I have made it standard practice to enhance any survey markers on property I'm associated with...

The Nail with Shiner in street which I own half off would have had my roto hammer drill and at least a 36" foundation stake...

 

[ultrarunner]

Please come back and tell us how it went!


I've mentioned before - A broker listed the empty land next door using my postal address. He refused to revise the listing.

Until I told him that everyone who pulls into my driveway will be told my place isn't for sale and the listing in MLS is from a scammer who will take their deposit and disappear.

That got him going. He went back to the county assessor and was issued the next postal address for his vacant land.

Will do... I expect it will closed with new owners in 30 days...

My offer was 940k with the brother being able to rent back in the contract... in other words nothing really would have changed and he could continue where he was for 43 years with his dogs.

 

[JasperFrank]

Remember that your property may have been originally just set up with chains and stuff. Does new tech make things better? Or do you have to redefine the borders to a more clearer division of property. This is a very messy area, legality, and open to interpretation and open to contention with more exacting measuring methods. 10 feet, can sometimes be important. If you own 20 or more acres it can be hard to monitor this, if you also have a 9 to 5 job. I have found that all my neighbors have made inroads into my property, and I called them on that, and they backed off. Yet, they still did it. It is not a nice world out there. I just don't like any of my immediate people anymore.

 

[jyoutz]

Neighboring parcel is for sale for the first time since 1955 to settle the estate and there appears to be confusion among the prospective buyers and agents as to the location of our shared property line...

I have not been able to find the pins shown on my property's 1989 survey...

The street has been repaved and 5 years back the city dug up and replaced city sewer line running under shared property line taking out the pins.

Realtor suggested a survey of the property for sale and wants me to participate which I declined.

I got to thinking wouldn't it be much less expensive avoiding the cost of a survey calling the original company out to find the pins?

Any tips on how to approach the survey company to find three pins on a straight line?

A new survey here tends to run about 5k.

Is the best shot sticking with the original surveyor to save on cost?

All land surveys should be registered with the county assessor. The last survey map should be on file with the county.

 

[jyoutz]

Perhaps in an area where "lot size" is smaller - ultra runner. Here where I live - lot size is measured in hundreds - even thousands - of acres. My 80 acres is a mere pimple on the landscape.

In my 40+ years out here I've never been approached to share in the costs of any surveys. Even though these surveys established three of my four corners by modern survey methods.

The 1892 government survey was/is just fine by me. For that matter - most all the larger plots were the result of long past government surveys. Homesteads ...........

In the central/western US, the government conducted General Land Surveys under the modern township/range/section system. They are pretty accurate. But in the eastern US, those original surveys were done under the “meets and bounds” system. And those old surveys are often not useable today. Those surveys talk about corners starting at: the large oak tree, black rock, stream meander, etc…. I suspect that is the situation that the OP is dealing with. Unless those old meets and bounds surveys are refreshed with modern surveys and records, it’s often not possible to determine the true property boundaries.

 

[California]

Can you rent survey grade GPS? Yes you can. Would you be able to run it? No.

How about renting GPS gear - or something - more precise than what's in a phone or cheap Garmin?

Using those amateur tools, and scaling off the 1905 subdivision map and the county assessor version of it, the indicated back corner points are all within a 30 ft circle. Within the circle is the only Redwood tree in the region.

Grandpa had a mining engineering degree, and career, and did years of mining surface and underground survey work. Then after his retirement one neighbor told me they worked together to set monuments along their shared line that 100 years ago divided an existing orchard. I suspect but can't prove, that Grandpa planted that Redwood as a back-corner monument that could be seen from a distance. (It's down in a jungle of blackberries and poison oak in a steep ravine, so I won't look for a pin using metal detector until I have a better clue of where to look).

Is there some simple solution more precise than the phone and Garmin?

Maybe I should just hire the surveyor who set the recent (2010) known back corner pin, to come and monument this other back corner.

 

[Jstpssng]

How about renting GPS gear - or something - more precise than what's in a phone or cheap Garmin?

Using those amateur tools, and scaling off the 1905 subdivision map and the county assessor version of it, the indicated back corner points are all within a 30 ft circle. Within the circle is the only Redwood tree in the region.

Grandpa had a mining engineering degree, and career, and did years of mining surface and underground survey work. Then after his retirement one neighbor told me they worked together to set monuments along their shared line that 100 years ago divided an existing orchard. I suspect but can't prove, that Grandpa planted that Redwood as a back-corner monument that could be seen from a distance. (It's down in a jungle of blackberries and poison oak in a steep ravine, so I won't look for a pin using metal detector until I have a better clue of where to look).

Is there some simple solution more precise than the phone and Garmin?

Maybe I should just hire the surveyor who set the recent (2010) known back corner pin, to come and monument this other back corner.

That could be your least expensive solution, especially if your time is better spent elsewhere. We've rented and older survey grade GPS for a project ...carving out 12-20 acre parcels from a larger tract The front pins were set. I had to establish approximate points where the rear line would go, turn in the data, then they corrected so that we could go out and put in the side and rear lines.
>
Which leads up to an off topic tale which I've always found comical...

It was about this time of year when I drove up a woods road to GPS the last points. I hiked in, did what I had to do, and returned to the truck at about lunchtime. On the way out I got behind a grader operator who was plowing the road. I waited for him to let me past but instead he stopped and got out his lunch. This seemed like a good idea so I did the same, although rather curious why he didn't let me go by.
Suddenly he jumped up in the cab of the grader and started dancing, apparently to some song on the radio. I don't recall what happened next, all that I can remember was being awestruck that the old French Canadian was still able to dance... in the cab of a grader, no less!

 

[dodge man]

Eddie Walker recently posted a similar question on some kind of app or method to build a fence to line when you can’t see between the corners. There are ways but generally it’s not easy unless you have some equipment and know what you are doing.

One thing to understand is gps degrades in heavy tree cover. In thick trees even the survey grade stuff won’t work.

 

[ponytug]

The short answer is that more accurate GPS gear is expensive.

If you can't get it figured out with some of the low tech methods above, I am with @Jstpssng that getting the prior surveyor back is probably the least expensive choice.

If your grandfather was a sensible sort, and it sounds like he was, then I bet you are right that the "odd" redwood was there intentionally.

If you really want to have fun; here is a remarkable treatise on how Romans did surveying to high accuracy, including surveying aqueducts underground.

All the best,

Peter

 

[dodge man]

The Trimble GPS system we bought before I retired was around $60,000.

 

[MasseyFerg231]

When my father bought this 80 acres in 1939 - he accepted the 1892 government meets/bounds survey. Since that time the land around me has changed hands a few times. Three of my four property corners have been re-established by modern day surveys.

Surprisingly - the old government surveys were spot on - plus or minus six inches.

The fourth corner - the SW corner - is out in the middle of a big lake. Nobody, including me, gives much of a hoot about having that corner surveyed.

One step even further, Jstpssng. How can a lending institution lend that kind of money without knowing things are "kosher". That's your and my money and one "sloppy" loan could put those funds in jeopardy for a good long time.

Our place is 5.5 acres wit house /barn. It’s a cost for us. Lender did not require suvey. We insisted. Seller paid $4,500. Glad we insisted. One of our fences is directly on the line. Pool is on the setback. Nice to know going into it.
I have done lots of work on seven figure properties with zero setback. You have to account for thickness of exterior wall finishes. We had one where the chimney on the house next door encroached 3” onto our site at the top.

 

[dodge man]

It’s been about 30 years ago but I did a subdivision. New lot on a golf course, very high end for our area, maybe a 100 lots.

The first home builder found the pins and built the house, never called us. In Illinois and by the city ordinance you have to stake bends in the road right of way. The builder of this first house found one of these bends in the street pins, which was about 5 feet away from the lot corner. Mostly by dumb luck the house was just barely within the setbacks.

 

[newbury]

That quite a survey, it shows topography also.

A couple of points, we don’t want the government involved in surveying. <snip a bunch of good points>


Obviously each of the above 3 types require a different method by the surveyor. Sorry for the long post.

Don't apologize.
Someone should make a compendium of your posts and put it in a TBN fact file.

Remember that your property may have been originally just set up with chains and stuff. Does new tech make things better? Or do you have to redefine the borders to a more clearer division of property. This is a very messy area, legality, and open to interpretation and open to contention with more exacting measuring methods. 10 feet, can sometimes be important. If you own 20 or more acres it can be hard to monitor this, if you also have a 9 to 5 job. I have found that all my neighbors have made inroads into my property, and I called them on that, and they backed off. Yet, they still did it. It is not a nice world out there. I just don't like any of my immediate people anymore.

Unfortunately that is the way things are going, steal a little until you get caught then say "whoops, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that".
What they mean is they didn't mean to get caught.

 

[ddbackhoe]

And that's why I said what I said. If it were simplified and standardized and a matter of record on each parcel in a diagrammed format, it could/should be included in each real estate sale listing from the git-go. There would be no surprises like that. There would be no need for interpretations by private companies of what can and can't be done.

If I wanted to cut 10 acres off a 50 acre parcel, I could draw lines on that diagram and be done with it.

Sure, if the earth was really flat and on one plane with no rivers, dales or hollows that may work. Who would explain to all the deeded land holders that all the lines are going to be redrawn for their benefit ?

 

[BackRoad]

One more survey war story:

The rural property was listed as 52 acres. Nice view with promise, but terribly overgrown and difficult to find the corner markers. I looked...

Using measurement tools in Google Earth and what seemed to be obvious borders, the best I could make out was ~35 acres.

So we made the offer contingent on a current survey.

Survey confirmed it was only 34.5 acres not 52.

Sad that the original owners had been paying taxes for nearly 30 years on "52 acres".

Which is one more reason the government should not be in the survey business! They levy taxes based on the results.

...//TJ

 

[Jstpssng]

They levy taxes based on the results.

...//TJ

Here, at least; those taxes are based on maps created by private companies who do the best they can to interpret deeds, then make them match what they see on aerial photos. Sure, it would be nice if they went out and visited every lot but would you want your tax accessor to pay for it? Just another reason to hire a surveyor and find out what you really own. At the very least take your deed and those of your neighbors, read the descriptions and overlay them onto Google Earth; and see how closely it does or doesn't match what your deed and tax bill says that you have.

 

[bdhsfz6]

In my state, many older surveys were done using metes & bounds (distance and compass bearing) rather than coordinates. I use this program to draw deed plot maps from that data:

Metes and Bounds Plotter | Deed Plotting | For Windows, Mac and iOS

Free Deed Plotting Software. Metes and Bounds Plotter. Legal Description Plotter.

www.tabberer.com

The plot map can then be used as an overlay in Google earth to get a good idea where property lines are. Its no where near as accurate as a survey though.

 

[dodge man]

What Jstppsng is 100% spot on. Almost all county maps and GIS systems are not based on survey data but just lines drawn as best as possible on top of the aerials.

When I was still working a lady called and said the assessor called her and said he was going to start making her pay taxes on her neighbors house because his GIS map showed she owned it. Keep in mind neither owner had a dispute, she did not think it was her house. When I called the assessor I tried to be polite but I finally got tired of him and told him he didn’t have the authority to do that. He of course got all indignant. I told her to contact an attorney which I rarely give that advice. I never did here how that one turned out.

 

[RjCorazza]

I find surveys and resulting issues to be fascinating reading.
I know very little about them however (more so now). I did locate all of the pins on my 2 adjacent properties when we bought 24 years ago, and mapped them out on AutoCAD for future reference.

I did come home several years ago to a surveyor exposing the pin that separates my properties at the street. I believe he was using that pin to measure back to the corner pin that separates my property from a neighbor's lot that was being sold. He wasn't very friendly, but I suspect they get treated poorly sometimes dealing with other people's problems.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Here's one I still get a chuckle over.

I once owned a piece of land I used mainly for hunting. I didn't get up there much but on one visit, I found a "For Sale" sign posted next to the property access road. I removed the sign and returned it to listing realtors office. They informed me the land was part of an estate owned by someone I never heard of. After some testy conversation, they gave me the name of their surveyor. I called and made an appointment to meet him at the site.

I was waiting for him with my deed and survey map spread out on the hood of my truck. When he laid his map alongside mine, it quickly became obvious there was a major error. It turned out one of his draftsmen had the correct road name on the plot plan but the wrong county! Fortunately, there was no harm done and we both had a good laugh!

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the property had been sold.