Cattle Crossings, Material ?

[Spike56]

Is the stream too big for a culvert? My experience - anything less than a culvert washes out in the spring. I'd rather build it right and build it once.

Well, it is not a "stream" per say. I have (2) bad spots. One I am working on now. This is an overflow from a 2 acre pond. The pond was built by damming up a ravine. So, when the water overflows, there is a small semi-flat area, then down a slope. The semi-flat area has always been too narrow of an area, and the cattle were walking right there perpendicular to the water flow. My solution initially was to add 6-8" limestone rip-rap to reduce the erosion and still have an area for cattle to cross. This held for a few years, but started to erode mainly due to the cattle trail. I am moving the fence now, such that they cross farther down the slope and adding additional rip-rap close to the overflow area. I could not afford additional 6-8 inch, so using 3-5 inch. Should be able to finish this in 1 week.
The (2nd bad spot) other area is frightening. It is a ravine coming out of a area full of trees that brings a lot (20'wide, 3' deep) of water. I need to cross perpendicular to the water flow on a slope.
In both cases, I do not think a culvert would work ? The water at the top end would always be about 20' wide of an area. So it's not a "stream bed" crossing type situation. I am struggling with this.... cannot even get a concrete truck to either spot even if I could afford it... which I cannot.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Just call local dirt guys. Ask them for busted concrete. I have some in 2' x 3' to 4' x 4' chunks.

 

[Spike56]

Just call local dirt guys. Ask them for busted concrete. I have some in 2' x 3' to 4' x 4' chunks.

Anywhere close by here, busted concrete is like asking for gold ! EVERYONE wants it, and now they recycle / process it for the county. Just not enough to go around, actually not a lot of concrete anything around here except house slabs - where I live. That would be ideal to get some bigger slabs however.

 

[ponytug]

Wow. In my book, 20'x3' wide water is a it deal, especially water moving at speed. That is an enormous amount of power. That is beyond a simple cattle ford in my book. There is a ford near us for a similar amount of water and it must be over a hundred feet long, and, at least in places, more than five feet deep. The ability of water to move (erode) objects goes up as the velocity to the sixth power. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0189e/report.pdf)

20'x3' is sixty square feet of water cross section. Three 8' culverts half full is an area of about 75 sq. ft. Having culverts more than half full greatly increases the washout risk, especially as the next decade of weather forecasts are for larger weather events.

Keep us in the loop as you move forward!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Spike56]

Wow. In my book, 20'x3' wide water is a it deal, especially water moving at speed. That is an enormous amount of power. That is beyond a simple cattle ford in my book. There is a ford near us for a similar amount of water and it must be over a hundred feet long, and, at least in places, more than five feet deep. The ability of water to move (erode) objects goes up as the velocity to the sixth power. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0189e/report.pdf)

20'x3' is sixty square feet of water cross section. Three 8' culverts half full is an area of about 75 sq. ft. Having culverts more than half full greatly increases the washout risk, especially as the next decade of weather forecasts are for larger weather events.

Keep us in the loop as you move forward!

All the best,

Peter

YES ! That it is A LOT of water and is why I wrote in to this forum. Just wanted to check if I was missing out on a solution.
I **think** if I could pour a ground level 10' wide strip of concrete across perpendicular , and be sure to not block the water to cause any further washout, it would work. Of course, I'd have to sell almost everything I own to pay for that

 

[ponytug]

If you do go the route of pouring concrete, I would pour deep footings so that a "gulley washer" doesn't undermine your hard work. (I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on tv, so this isn't expert advice!) I have seen more than a few fords fail in snap thunderbursts that create a flash flood, almost always by the water getting under the ford...

That sixth power of speed law makes for some enormous earth moving powers as you get more water coming through. Water moving twice as fast has 64 times the sediment eroding and moving power...

If you can borrow material from somewhere else, large culverts might be a lot cheaper than concrete, unless your concrete is a lot cheaper than mine.


All the best,

Peter

 

[Spike56]

If you do go the route of pouring concrete, I would pour deep footings so that a "gulley washer" doesn't undermine your hard work. (I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on tv, so this isn't expert advice!) I have seen more than a few fords fail in snap thunderbursts that create a flash flood, almost always by the water getting under the ford...

That sixth power of speed law makes for some enormous earth moving powers as you get more water coming through. Water moving twice as fast has 64 times the sediment eroding and moving power...

If you can borrow material from somewhere else, large culverts might be a lot cheaper than concrete, unless your concrete is a lot cheaper than mine.


All the best,

Peter

Thanks Peter. I cannot see any possible solution with Culverts. Just too much water. I am in planning on another area that a culvert would work (so long as we dont get a 10" rain). Just priced a 36"x 16' = 1306.50. Once I add getting rip-rap to guard it, and add price for backhoe install and dirt work.... $$$ Then, I would need to fence so the cattle MUST cross there. Then add fence so to not allow them to run parallel (to far) from the crossing or they will wear trails where it will run water up/down the slope directly to the crossing... ugh. Starting to think I'd be better off selling out and moving.

 

[jyoutz]

For forestry projects we build wet water crossings for vehicles. Basically use a small dozer to dig down and then place large rocks deep in the mud to form a solid base. Then top it with smaller stones about 3” in size. This method does require a vehicle to drive through shallow water, but hardens the ground to make a stable crossing. Culverts have a tendency to blow out following large storm flow, but the hardened crossings stay in good condition.

 

[ponytug]

@Spike56 I hear you on the realities of a budget. If you have rocks and a bulldozer, I think what @jyoutz suggested certainly works; I have driven over more than a few.

All the best,

Peter

 

[jyoutz]

@Spike56 I hear you on the realities of a budget. If you have rocks and a bulldozer, I think what @jyoutz suggested certainly works; I have driven over more than a few.

All the best,

Peter

At an hourly rate, it still may be worth hiring this done. This doesn’t take too many hours for the right equipment.