5035 running out of fuel

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Hi All,
Happy Spring!

Long time member here with minimal posts as my 5035 has been rock solid since purchase in 2011.
With only 310 hrs on the clock, that may be why.

However, little problems are now happening with the fuel system.
This winter, the engine just stopped while idling after having sat for most of the summer.
Turns out the fuel return line was leaking badly due to a defective factory crimp but I couldn't see it behind the lower engine cover panel. I proceeded to change out the fuel filter after 300 hrs even though the manual says 500 hrs. After the swap, I saw the leak which wasn't visible right away... it had to dribble down the black braided nylon covering before starting to drip.

After some research, I found Mahindra had a recall on the crimp-style fuel lines on my model. Too late for me to get the job done free, so I repaired the line using a Dremel tool to cut the crimp off (carefully) and replaced the line with a good quality rubber fuel hose, then threw away the screw type hose clamp and replaced it with two Stainless Steel Single Ear Hose Clamps. Mission accomplished.

A month later while plowing after a snowstorm (hadn't had a need for big red until then), she just plain died during moderate travel speed. Waited 20 minutes and started right up. Couldn't see a leak anywhere. Called my dealer, $274 later the mechanic said he believed he hound the culprit. A loose hose clamp at the tank (very hard to get to) where he found the line to be moist. Before he left I heard him start the engine and ran it for about 5 mins. Fixed,... or so I thought.

Started the engine today and let it idle for about 20 minutes while I cleaned out the garage. I then noticed the engine had stopped on its own. Tried to start it. Nothing.
Thinking there was air in the line, I pumped the primer button on top of the fuel filter housing. It Felt soft,.. like there was air in there so kept pumping until I felt resistance. Turned the key...started right up.

I can't find any leaks. Seems the gas flow from the tank is restricted and can't keep up with the engine's fuel need via the filter housing. I am guessing the fuel flow from the tank isn't strong enough and is not keeping the filter housing full.
After pumping the primer (?) the filter/housing fills up again, the engine starts with issue and has plenty of power.... until the fuel runs out again.
Commence hair pulling!

Note: I am very cautious about keeping the screen filter in place when adding fuel since new, but my tractor was a demo and had 10 hours on the clock when I bought it. Perhaps a careless employee filled the tank with dirty diesel form a container that had sediment in it without the screen in place? This dealer seems to have a high employee turnover rate...

Could the screen in the tank have debris blocking it? If so, how the heck do I get to it? I can't seem to find a factory service manual anywhere.

Appreciate any and all input.
Thanks.
New guy

 

[jb1390]

I'm not sure on the 5035, but my 3550 (common rail) had an issue with the tank cap not properly venting. It caused the tank to collapse a couple times. One time was fixed under warranty, the second time, I blew it back up with compressed air and modified the cap so it breathes better. Mahindra came out with an updated cap. That issue would cause a hard start, especially after running for a while then shutting off.

After it stalls, have you removed the cap to see if you can hear air rush in? Maybe the rubber swelled over time, and the cap is sealing too tight. Worth at least checking.

On the fuel filter - there are 2 filters I believe, one on the frame by the front wheel, and the other on the motor. At least that's how mine is set up. That lower one fills up with sediment and a bit of water. I've changed that one a couple times since 2014. I have never touched the other one. If you haven't done the one by the wheel, I'd suggest pulling that housing off and cleaning it.

I also wonder from your description whether this is a fuel issue at all. If the system does pull in air, I'm a little surprised that it would start right back up like you described during the snowstorm. I'd expect it to need some priming. I'd also expect that once it's running, it would probably stay running, at least at idle. I recently was chasing an issue that I thought at first was fuel - hard starting. But it turned out the ignition switch had gone bad. It would maintain contact until you tried to start it, at which point contact was intermittent. So sometimes after cranking for a little while, it would fire up. The clue there was that my dash lights would go out. Once I noticed that happening, it was clear it wasn't fuel. While chasing that down though (and suspecting it was a fuel issue), I found that the primer wasn't always tight. Even though it had fuel. Since at first I suspected fuel, I did check the fuel lines by pulling tank (easy enough once the rear tire is out of the way), and providing a small amount of air pressure through a regulator. If you have leaks, that should show it. But I wouldn't discount something else causing this issue.

 

[RjCorazza]

You could try disconnecting the fuel line before the filter and check the flow there. Blow low pressure air back through the line if the flow is restricted. If there is junk in the tank, you will need to drain the tank and swab it out through the fill port or something similar.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

I'm not sure on the 5035, but my 3550 (common rail) had an issue with the tank cap not properly venting. It caused the tank to collapse a couple times. One time was fixed under warranty, the second time, I blew it back up with compressed air and modified the cap so it breathes better. Mahindra came out with an updated cap. That issue would cause a hard start, especially after running for a while then shutting off.

After it stalls, have you removed the cap to see if you can hear air rush in? Maybe the rubber swelled over time, and the cap is sealing too tight. Worth at least checking.

On the fuel filter - there are 2 filters I believe, one on the frame by the front wheel, and the other on the motor. At least that's how mine is set up. That lower one fills up with sediment and a bit of water. I've changed that one a couple times since 2014. I have never touched the other one. If you haven't done the one by the wheel, I'd suggest pulling that housing off and cleaning it.

I also wonder from your description whether this is a fuel issue at all. If the system does pull in air, I'm a little surprised that it would start right back up like you described during the snowstorm. I'd expect it to need some priming. I'd also expect that once it's running, it would probably stay running, at least at idle. I recently was chasing an issue that I thought at first was fuel - hard starting. But it turned out the ignition switch had gone bad. It would maintain contact until you tried to start it, at which point contact was intermittent. So sometimes after cranking for a little while, it would fire up. The clue there was that my dash lights would go out. Once I noticed that happening, it was clear it wasn't fuel. While chasing that down though (and suspecting it was a fuel issue), I found that the primer wasn't always tight. Even though it had fuel. Since at first I suspected fuel, I did check the fuel lines by pulling tank (easy enough once the rear tire is out of the way), and providing a small amount of air pressure through a regulator. If you have leaks, that should show it. But I wouldn't discount something else causing this issue.

The cap issue was covered when I had the initial problem due to the leak. I have left the cap loose to test that theory but no change. I had retightened it, then loosened when it stalled this time, but did not detect any air rushing in when doing so.

The second filter is something that I didn't know about. I looked at the parts listing on the Bill's Tractor website but didn't see a second filter. I will look into that.

You make a good point of the engine restarting without priming back in the winter. But to clarify, she sat for about 20 minutes before it would start up again. Before that, she just turned over without a hint of firing up.
After warming up a bit, I went back outside and gave the key a turn and she started right up. No priming needed. And it ran well enough to get it back in the garage. That's when I called the dealer..
I didn't know about the primer at that time and actually had called the dealer thinking it had died and needed service. If I had known about the primer pump, that may have enabled the engine to start but it was the first time I've ever had any issue with starting big red during the 11 years of ownership.

I do have some experience in auto maintenance, repair, and restoration so I'm not a complete newbie. The fact that the engine stops during idle is perplexing and has me stumped since there are no apparent fuel leaks on the floor, which would let air in the system.
FYI: The last time I used it for snow removal and kept it moving, (after having to prime the filter housing with the pump for initial startup after the mechanic visit.. wasn't happy about that!) ran for about an hour and I was able to complete the job without failure.
The only issues I've had with hard starting seem to be fuel related since once I was sure the filter housing was full (via the small bleed screw at the top of the filter housing) startup was enabled every time.

It may come down to removing the rear tire to see what's going on at the tank.
I do have an auto lift rated at 10k lbs which may help if that's the case but i hope to avoid that job until there's nothing else to troubleshoot.
The mechanic said the tank can be moved forward for fuel tank line access without removing the rear wheel by loosening the straps but i can't readily see how to do that. More research....

Thanks for your input JB.
I'll document my progress here.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

You could try disconnecting the fuel line before the filter and check the flow there. Blow low pressure air back through the line if the flow is restricted. If there is junk in the tank, you will need to drain the tank and swab it out through the fill port or something similar.

Thats a good option Rj. I'll give it a try.
I'll let you know if blowing air into the tank improves static fuel flow.

Does anyone know if there is a legitimate service manual available for this model Mahindra which includes troubleshooting steps and a detailed parts listing with illustrations?

 

[jb1390]

The cap issue was covered when I had the initial problem due to the leak. I have left the cap loose to test that theory but no change. I had retightened it, then loosened when it stalled this time, but did not detect any air rushing in when doing so.

The second filter is something that I didn't know about. I looked at the parts listing on the Bill's Tractor website but didn't see a second filter. I will look into that.

You make a good point of the engine restarting without priming back in the winter. But to clarify, she sat for about 20 minutes before it would start up again. Before that, she just turned over without a hint of firing up.
After warming up a bit, I went back outside and gave the key a turn and she started right up. No priming needed. And it ran well enough to get it back in the garage. That's when I called the dealer..
I didn't know about the primer at that time and actually had called the dealer thinking it had died and needed service. If I had known about the primer pump, that may have enabled the engine to start but it was the first time I've ever had any issue with starting big red during the 11 years of ownership.

I do have some experience in auto maintenance, repair, and restoration so I'm not a complete newbie. The fact that the engine stops during idle is perplexing and has me stumped since there are no apparent fuel leaks on the floor, which would let air in the system.
FYI: The last time I used it for snow removal and kept it moving, (after having to prime the filter housing with the pump for initial startup after the mechanic visit.. wasn't happy about that!) ran for about an hour and I was able to complete the job without failure.
The only issues I've had with hard starting seem to be fuel related since once I was sure the filter housing was full (via the small bleed screw at the top of the filter housing) startup was enabled every time.

It may come down to removing the rear tire to see what's going on at the tank.
I do have an auto lift rated at 10k lbs which may help if that's the case but i hope to avoid that job until there's nothing else to troubleshoot.
The mechanic said the tank can be moved forward for fuel tank line access without removing the rear wheel by loosening the straps but i can't readily see how to do that. More research....

Thanks for your input JB.
I'll document my progress here.

Upon further review I'm not sure your machine has that second filter. Mine is a 3550, it's possible they added that filter when they changed the engine to Tier 4. I found a photo of the spot it's installed on mine, on a 5035 that was for sale, and there was nothing there.

I'm really wondering whether this is something electrical vs fuel. The engine sitting for a time should not make it easier to start if it's pulling in air. In fact, it should make it worse, since more time will give the fuel more of a chance to run back into the tank, pulling in air behind it.

By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air.

The suggestion to blow backwards through the line to clear obstructions is good advice. If you do that, and pressurize the lines from the tank to the pump with low pressure air, I think you could at least rule out fuel issues before moving on to other possibilities.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Upon further review I'm not sure your machine has that second filter. Mine is a 3550, it's possible they added that filter when they changed the engine to Tier 4. I found a photo of the spot it's installed on mine, on a 5035 that was for sale, and there was nothing there.

I'm really wondering whether this is something electrical vs fuel. The engine sitting for a time should not make it easier to start if it's pulling in air. In fact, it should make it worse, since more time will give the fuel more of a chance to run back into the tank, pulling in air behind it.

By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air.

The suggestion to blow backwards through the line to clear obstructions is good advice. If you do that, and pressurize the lines from the tank to the pump with low pressure air, I think you could at least rule out fuel issues before moving on to other possibilities.

Thanks for the additional info.
I will try starting the engine with the lights on as I normally don't do so and wouldn't notice the lights going out. I hope it's that easy as I'm quite frustrated with the fuel thing, especially since the tractor has so few hours on it and I am quite cautious about keeping the screen at the top of the tank in place when fueling.

To clarify, the last time the engine stopped, the attempt to start it failed.
The only thing I did next was to pump the primer, which went from soft to firm in feel. Turned the key and she started right up. I can't explain it, except that perhaps there is a blockage in the tanks screen and there is not enough flow to keep the filter housing full.

However, what I don't understand is when all was running fine, the 5035 could sit for months, then start right up when the key was turned.
I do use the Ford Diesel octane boost additive under recommendation of my son in laws father. Without it, it can take several attempts to start the diesel, especially in cold weather. With the additive, regardless of temp, starts within 2-4 seconds. Currently I keep it in a garage that is heated and never goes below 45deg F.

I will try all suggestions and report back soon.
Thanks all for the suggestions.
If anyone else has any ideas, I'd like to hear them.
best
Gus

 

[DaBear3428]

did you check for contaminated fuel? diesel can grow stuff if left setting too long. The filters tend to catch the stuff become clogged then kill the engine, in the early stages if you let it set the fuel will slowly flow thru the compromised filter and fill the bowl the the engine will start and run for a few min then repeat the issue.

recommend draining/cleaning tank and replacing all fuel filters involved (even if new)

Good luck

 

[Fxfymn413]

My bet is you have something in the tank that is blocking the line. When it shuts down the vacuum created by the pump stops and the blockage floats away only to find its way back when fuel starts flowing again. Its happened to me a couple of times from using a farm tank.

MY suggestion is to drain the tank and check for foreign objects, like dead bugs, in the tank with a light or a bore scope. If you find anything you can use a turkey baster with a hose attached to try to get the items out.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

"By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air."


Tried to start today in 72deg weather with all lights on for about 4 seconds. Lights stayed on but no start. Pumped primer. Started right up. Gotta be a fuel issue. thanks for the suggestions though.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

did you check for contaminated fuel? diesel can grow stuff if left setting too long. The filters tend to catch the stuff become clogged then kill the engine, in the early stages if you let it set the fuel will slowly flow thru the compromised filter and fill the bowl the the engine will start and run for a few min then repeat the issue.

recommend draining/cleaning tank and replacing all fuel filters involved (even if new)

Good luck

You may be onto something DaBear... Last year the job kept me busy and did not have time to do any projects during the warm weather. The fuel sat, although didn't have any starting problems initially. The main problem was the leaking return fuel line.
However, I still cannot see any fuel on the cement garage floor so it's time to buy a borescope, drain the tank and see if there are an furries in there.
I am very careful when filling the tank and keeping the screen in place, but that won't prevent algae growth.
If I do find something, how do I clean the tank with only access from the fill port under the cap?
I need to do a close inspection underneath as well. I still can't find any documentation anywhere for the location of the fuel lines, which I know I am going to have to replace due to known and documented bad crimps. I am hopeful I will be able to see them with a work light while crawling around on the floor.
Thanks for the advice.
Appreciated.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

My bet is you have something in the tank that is blocking the line. When it shuts down the vacuum created by the pump stops and the blockage floats away only to find its way back when fuel starts flowing again. Its happened to me a couple of times from using a farm tank.

MY suggestion is to drain the tank and check for foreign objects, like dead bugs, in the tank with a light or a bore scope. If you find anything you can use a turkey baster with a hose attached to try to get the items out.

You, Dabear, and others seem to agree it may be dirty/contaminated fuel. Will get an inexpensive borescope and take a look after draining the tank.
Good idea on the turkey baster!
I'm still not sure why the fuel is draining back into the tank when its shut off while running, forcing me to prime the injectors before it will start...makes no sense to my two brain cells...Any ideas?

I'll let everyone know what I find.
Thanks for the input.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Btw: She will idle for 30+ minutes before going dry and stopping. That happened in December when I found the leaky return line.
Perhaps dirty fuel was always a part of the problem, even when I found the leaking fuel line and repaired it and the small leak the dealers mechanic found. Not a drop of fuel on the floor and the lines I can see without crawling on the floor look dry. Contaminated fuel seems to be the logical culprit at this point. We shall see.
Thanks again to all for the help.
ng

 

[Fxfymn413]

I'm still not sure why the fuel is draining back into the tank when its shut off while running, forcing me to prime the injectors before it will start...makes no sense to my two brain cells...Any ideas?

It isn't draining back; you are running out of fuel due to some kind of blockage.

She will idle for 30+ minutes before going dry and stopping.

Some times the "floaty" that is probably responsible for the stoppage doesn't work its way into the fuel line right away especially since the machine is sitting still while idling so it is not getting sloshed around.

This is actually a pretty common problem and will drive you batty since it is an intermittent issue. Mine occurred because I used a farm tank and I think some bugs took up residence in the open nozzle. A permanent cure is to install a screen in the tank fill opening. I made mine out of some stiff wire I had by wrapping the wire around a piece of pipe that was the correct size and welding the ends. I than ran a couple of straight pieces to tie the rings together and added a slightly larger ring to the top to keep it from dropping into the tank. I lined the frame with screen and viola no more bug problems.

 

[DaBear3428]

my normal go to is drain the tank, replace ALL the filters and refill with anti-growth additive added.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Update. Just for the sake of checking it, I checked the air bleed screw on the right side of the filter housing and gave it a slight turn with a wrench to check tightness... it doesn't seem snugged down and I'm afraid if I turn it farther I may strip the threads as I believe the screw is ferrous metal (steel) and the housing is aluminum.

So if the bleed screw isn't tight and is right on the edge of being stripped, could this be allowing air into the filter and housing, requiring the primer to be pushed to get fuel back into the filter housing as well as allowing fuel in the housing to drain back into the tank?

If so, would that would explain the odd occurrence of the fuel draining back as this has never happened before? Always immediate starts withing 3-4 seconds of cranking except in the coldest of conditions. Perhaps it's time to order a new fuel filter/primer housing?

I guess I could try to tap a new hole for a larger screw, but not too sure of my skill set for drilling/tapping aluminum. A new one from Reubicon tractor is $97.

Also, could this be a check valve failure in the fuel line to the tank? I don't see any indication of a check valve in the service manual. So we're back to the filter housing bleed screw.
As mentioned before, the fuel filter was replaced back in December when the intial no-start issued first started.

I attached a screen capture from the online Mahindra service manual I found for clarification.
Suggestions/recommendations?
Thanks All
ng

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Doing a lot of research here and found on a John Deere forum via google search that some models needed their fuel lines replaced as they are becoming porous. Mahindra has the same problem with their fuel lines circa 2011-2013 IIRC. Even had a dealer-run program to swap them out covered by Mahindra. Of course, my dealer conveniently "forgot" to tell me about it.

the existing lines can be fixed by using a Dremel tool to remove the defective lines (and crimp) carefully so as not to damage the underlying tube,... That is what failed on the return line that started leaking back in December. Here's the vid that helped me through that:

I am concerned that the crimp and/or line (the braided versions are those that fail, which I have) connected to the filter housising as they have the same troublesome crimps. They may also be porous now and allowing air in slowly but not visibly leaking, at least not enough that I can see.

Thoughts?
Thanks!
ng

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

It isn't draining back; you are running out of fuel due to some kind of blockage.

Some times the "floaty" that is probably responsible for the stoppage doesn't work its way into the fuel line right away especially since the machine is sitting still while idling so it is not getting sloshed around.

This is actually a pretty common problem and will drive you batty since it is an intermittent issue. Mine occurred because I used a farm tank and I think some bugs took up residence in the open nozzle. A permanent cure is to install a screen in the tank fill opening. I made mine out of some stiff wire I had by wrapping the wire around a piece of pipe that was the correct size and welding the ends. I than ran a couple of straight pieces to tie the rings together and added a slightly larger ring to the top to keep it from dropping into the tank. I lined the frame with screen and viola no more bug problems.

Just saw your post fx. Apologies for not responding earlier.
Ok, so it's not draining back...it's running out of fuel..
And yes, it is driving me batty!

Yes, it is intermittent, but a reproducible intermittent.
Case in point: Before even starting it, I checked the primer and it was soft... As I pushed the primer down I could hear fuel bubbling into the lines on it's way to the injectors/fuel pump (?). A turn of the key, and a little hesitation (didn't pump the primer as much as last time), she kicked a bit, then started right up. Happens every time now without fail...its hard for me to wrap my head around that "floaties" can create this scenario

Good point on the screen at the fill port: You probably missed this in one of my earlier posts, but there is a factory-installed screen in the outlet. I have never ever added fuel without this screen in place. There are some bits of debris in the screen which proves its doing its job.
The screen is a very fine mesh... even algae would have a hard time getting through it...

I also mentioned earlier that the tractor is a demo and had 10 hours on the clock when i purchased it in 2011. Who knows if an employee at the dealership removed the screen for a quick fill from the bulk fuel tank and added some debris, which is only now making its presence known... yup, batty...

I did get under the chassis and found no signs of diesel fuel leakage..
But God help me if I ever have to replace the main fuel line from the tank to the filter housing.. can't see any trace of it from below...

I have ordered an inexpensive inspection/borescope.
Will drain and inspect the tank upon receipt.

Thanks for your input and patience fx.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

my normal go to is drain the tank, replace ALL the filters and refill with anti-growth additive added.

Good advice DaBear. Any recommendation for a tried and true anti-growth additive?

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Here is a post I found when the initial engine stopping issue began in December.
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I have two lines that have the nylon braid on them that run to/from the filter housing.
Took a while to find this post again. I knew I saw it somewhere.

Perhaps I should repair these two lines even though I don't see any leaking as the porousness happens over time, which in my case, is about 11 years, even though the tractor only has about 310 hours on it.

Oil & Fuel - 5035 starts then looses power

Hello all, I have a 5035 with 228 hrs on it. It was serviced by dealer in November. It sat most of this past winter. However, the past few times I've used it it cuts out when running at high Rpm. Will actually stop. It will restart and idle just fine but when throttled up it sputters and pukes...

www.tractorbynet.com

These two posts are mentioned in this post as well:

4035 stalled while idling

Was doing some stone work today with my tractor. At one point I was racking out the stones by hand while the tractor just sat and idled. It was probably idling for 10 minutes and all of a sudden it just started sounding like it was losing power and few seconds later it quit. I hopped back on...

www.tractorbynet.com

5035 Fuel Delivery Problem

Hello fellas, I need some advice! I have a 5035 with 35 hours on it. About 10 days ago, I started it to let it warm up while I unloaded 3 round bales of hay with my CTL and when I went to get on the tractor it was not running and would not start. Checked for water in original fuel filter and it...

www.tractorbynet.com

As noted in the post, the lines do not leak fuel but become porous and allow air to get sucked into the line as the rubber begins to break down.

Something to consider if draining and inspection of the tank doesn't reveal anything obvious?

Appreciate the support.
ng