Plumbers in specific, does anyone give a crap any more in general.....?

[crashz]

Dirttoys - I have to agree with plowhog, you aren't comparing apples to apples. You are comparing an employee salary to a company's estimated hourly service rate. More closely related is the trucking rates that the truck company charges. Which, depending on company, can be $120/hr or so plus fuel surcharge.

I'm no plumber but looked at the cost of your son's tasks and broke it down:
- 2 plumbers (licensed) for one day, say at a burdened cost (benefits, no overhead and profit) of $80/hr = $1280
- They probably would have replaced all three flanges, connectors etc so say WAG of parts = $500
- Overhead cost of tools, van, insurance, office support, etc 15% of labor and materials = $267
- Profit 15%= 307
- Sales tax (4.225% in MO???) = $100

Total = $2454

I don't think anyone was getting rich on this job.

 

[ponytug]

I'm a DIY kind of guy.

We are close to a major metropolitan area, so labor costs are high, not unreasonably, as the cost of living around here is high.

BUT, it is a challenge to find tradespeople willing to brave the drive away from the city to do things. Again, not unreasonable, as it is time not spent doing what they want to do.

But, here, it is almost always far cheaper for me to DIY it than to hire someone, assuming that I can find someone, and finding someone can take a lot of my time. Time that is probably better spent actually doing the job.

Example: I had a bad bearing on one of our vehicles: $2,500 estimated cost to repair at the shop. Parts: $252 Time for me: 30 minutes to do both wheels, and I had never done the job before. $4,698/hr work? Yeah, I will take that sort of work pretty much any day. (Tools to do the job: impact wrench, air compressor, extended socket set and torque wrench. All paid for by the job, if they hadn't been fully paid for already.)

Way back when, when I owned a ladder and a paintbrush for work, I would certainly quote jobs that I didn't want to do, and I always always factored in a client cost. (E.g. Finicky, high maintenance owner needing daily calls and oversight, no problem, but if it costs me time, it costs her as those hours go into the estimate, times at least two because it is time I am spending not doing useful things.)

So, I definitely see both sides, and when I get an outrageous quote, I don't take it personally. I just take it as a sign that the tradesperson doesn't want the job. Fine by me. It is their business and their life.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

I have mixed feelings about hiring work out. If you know how to do it, and have the time and tools to do it, then it's hard to self-justify spending so much on labor.

We put an addition on our garage two summers ago. I budgeted about $8K for the entire thing, based on my own gathering of the building materials, and the price the neighbor paid for concrete work. I got the concrete estimate from the same guy, and it was almost the entire budget. Turns out the neighbor did a pole barn addition to a slab garage and I was doing stick built addition to a slab garage. Two different sets of rules for foundations. I didn't think the concrete contractor was trying to stick it to me when he explained why, but it killed the deal. I went to the county building offices and came up with some alternatives that cut the concrete usage way down and brought it back into my budget, but I had to pour it myself. I had planned to do all the rest myself, and I did. Stayed under budget. But learned a valuable lesson about getting expert advice before making a budget.

Anyhow, a lot more goes into a project than what people think they know sometimes. Permits. Code. Proper materials and techniques. That knowledge comes at a cost. Sometimes it seems exorbitant. Sometimes it is exorbitant. Sometimes a contractor has you over a barrel and they don't need your work. It leaves a bad feeling when you know that someone is sticking it to you just because they know they can.

I've found the best way to locate reliable contractors and tradesmen is by word of mouth from friends, relatives and coworkers. A lot of them will tell you that yes, Bob is expensive, but Bob did what was promised in a timely and professional manner.

 

[MossRoad]

... (Tools to do the job: impact wrench, air compressor, extended socket set and torque wrench. All paid for by the job, if they hadn't been fully paid for already.)

...

That reminded me of when we had to extend a sidewalk at our current house after we put in a precast cement set of stairs with a landing at the top at our front door. I needed less than a yard of concrete. There was a 4 yard minimum delivery policy. Anything less than 4 yards, you paid a penalty.

I added up the cost of bagged concrete, a new small electric mixer, and hand tools for working the concrete, and it was less than 1 yard of concrete and the penalty.

So I did it myself. That was 25 years ago. I still have the mixer and hand tools. Use them occasionally for a fence post or something. Used them extensively for the garage addition I spoke of. Paid for themselves a couple times over.

 

[Richard]

That stinks, the more I weld the more I think I would like to go back and do a real course. I suppose those are gone too.

best,

ed

Not necessarily everywhere.

Locally here, are some Tech schools. I happen to be their retirement rep, so one day I specifically asked about taking a class.

I was asked if I was intending on getting a job by being certified? Nope, I just don't want to burn my arm off.

I CAN take the class, but I have to sign a waiver stating that I am NOT taking it for certification purposes.

Long story short, they're trying to keep their job placement percentage high so if I get 'certified' but don't get a job, I thwart their placement average. Sign waiver, I don't hurt their placement numbers and I can now take the course.

I think I was told it would be about $5,000...... so I forgot about it.

 

[Richard]

and set leg-hold traps.

Was that how she nabbed your father? lol

 

[MossRoad]

Not necessarily everywhere.

Locally here, are some Tech schools. I happen to be their retirement rep, so one day I specifically asked about taking a class.

I was asked if I was intending on getting a job by being certified? Nope, I just don't want to burn my arm off.

I CAN take the class, but I have to sign a waiver stating that I am NOT taking it for certification purposes.

Long story short, they're trying to keep their job placement percentage high so if I get 'certified' but don't get a job, I thwart their placement average. Sign waiver, I don't hurt their placement numbers and I can now take the course.

I think I was told it would be about $5,000...... so I forgot about it.

I ran into something similar with computer classes a long time ago. A local community college offered Microsoft Certification classes. I didn't want to become Microsoft Certified, I just wanted some specific classes on networking, operating systems, and database design and administration. Had to sign some papers that I was not seeking certification or degree so that I wouldn't throw off their graduation rates.

Back in the 80's I got a two for three deal at our state vocational school. They offered two electronics associate degrees. Industrial Electronics (motors, controllers, etc.) and Electronic Communications (TV and Radio oriented). If you singed up for both degrees at the same time, you got a discount and only had to spend 3 years to get 2 two-year degrees. After I finished those, I took several welding classes just for my own knowledge. There were no problems doing that, but I had to start at the lowest level class and work my way up just like someone getting their degree. I kinda wish I'd have gone a bit further with those classes, but I got oxy, stick, and mig done and that's about all I need. I'd like to get into TIG, but I might just teach myself that with youtube.

 

[MossRoad]

Was that how she nabbed your father? lol

Nah, She was just a fabulous Catholic babe with a Biology degree that liked to paint and write poetry and was teaching at a high school in her hometown of Cincinnati. My father was 8 years older, working on "some government project" while still in the Army reserves after WWII and living in Cincinnati at the YMCA. They both attended a lot of the same Catholic gatherings and mutual friends introduced them, saying they'd like each other. Apparently they did.... 6 weeks later they got married.

 

[dirttoys]

I'm not taking sides. But I think you are missing something from your earnings calculations for a trades worker.

You estimated overhead at $100/hr. In your case, if each time the worker spent 1 hour to travel to, review, and quote the job, only to not get any work, that's $200 of their money down the drain. And two hours in that work week gobbled up without any income.

I don't think it is accurate to calculate earnings for a tradesperson presuming all work hours in a week are fully billed out. It's usually short of that by quite a bit.

Then factor a business owner's time spent applying for permits, obtaining and renewing govt licenses, managing liability and workmen's comp insurance policies, filling out a sales tax return, filling out a income tax returns, doing banking, attending recurrent training, being sued by customers, interviewing potential employees you never hire, training new employees who then sometimes quickly leave for greener pastures, responding in person at the labor board to defend against employee claims, and the list goes on.

Oh, btw, my dad was a plumber! He provided for the family for decades, but he certainly didn't get rich.

I understand your point. However, my last couple of contacts have had trip charges and service calls. The guy comes out, has a look, gives you an estimate, and hands you a bill for a buck fifty that you pay whether you want the work done or not. I think they have all their risks mitigated.

By my math, the guy could do 4 estimates a day, 4 days a week, and gross $124k, without ever turning a wrench............

Best,

ed

 

[dirttoys]

Dirttoys - I have to agree with plowhog, you aren't comparing apples to apples. You are comparing an employee salary to a company's estimated hourly service rate. More closely related is the trucking rates that the truck company charges. Which, depending on company, can be $120/hr or so plus fuel surcharge.

I'm no plumber but looked at the cost of your son's tasks and broke it down:
- 2 plumbers (licensed) for one day, say at a burdened cost (benefits, no overhead and profit) of $80/hr = $1280
- They probably would have replaced all three flanges, connectors etc so say WAG of parts = $500
- Overhead cost of tools, van, insurance, office support, etc 15% of labor and materials = $267
- Profit 15%= 307
- Sales tax (4.225% in MO???) = $100

Total = $2454

I don't think anyone was getting rich on this job.

I appreciate you trying to help me rationalize this, and I will admit to being a little emotional about it. Let me clear a couple things for your math.

The first is the biggest, it was one plumber for a day, so double your numbers.
The flanges are $20 dollars each.
I wish my sales tax was 4.2%, but sadly the quote was pre tax..........

Hope you see my concern, and in my opinion, the guy WAS trying to get rich on the gig.

Let's say you charge $150 bucks to make a service call. Now let's say you are not a particularly good human. You mark up parts 500%, you charge $300 per hour and hand off an estimate.

Now maybe the customer calls you out, or does it himself, but, if you get 2 or 3 of these jobs a month, (working for folks that can't do it themselves, and don't have time or knowledge to look elsewhere) along with the $150 services calls, you could do little, and make a good living..................

If you can live with it

Best,

ed