Trailer brakes, is this normal?

/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #1  

dodge man

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Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
13,659
Location
West central Illinois
Tractor
JD 2025R
So I’m having new trailer tires mounted and while I had the wheels off I thought it would be a good idea to check to make sure the brakes and lights worked. I just spun the hub by hand to see if the brakes worked. I hooked it up the 2017 F150 which has a built in brake controller. If my wife hit the brakes there was about a 4 second delay before the brakes grabbed. If she squeezed the manual lever on the controller they grabbed right away. Also if the gain was turned up all the way they grabbed right away. I assume this is normal since the truck senses its not moving so it delays kicking the brakes on.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #2  
So I’m having new trailer tires mounted and while I had the wheels off I thought it would be a good idea to check to make sure the brakes and lights worked. I just spun the hub by hand to see if the brakes worked. I hooked it up the 2017 F150 which has a built in brake controller. If my wife hit the brakes there was about a 4 second delay before the brakes grabbed. If she squeezed the manual lever on the controller they grabbed right away. Also if the gain was turned up all the way they grabbed right away. I assume this is normal since the truck senses its not moving so it delays kicking the brakes on.
I'll call that normal. My old junk uses a timed engagement that starts low and raises the voltage over a period of 3-5 seconds if pedal is held.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #3  
I would consider a four second delay an issue. In fact, any delay when I need to make a panic stop would concern me. Having them work four seconds later at 60 miles per hour means they start after you travel 300 or so feet after stepping on the brakes, what is the point in having them?
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #4  
Some controllers have a delay to full power. Avoids locking up the trailer tires and getting flat spots, especially when empty.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #5  
I am not sure it is actually a delay you are seeing but maybe the controller setting is low. the lower the setting the longer it takes to stop the wheel and the higher the setting the faster or stronger the brakes are applied. I believe it is working correctly from your description.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #7  
The factory brake controllers are very sophisticated now. I would guess that fact that the truck wasn't moving would have some effect on the response to the brake pedal actuation.
Totally agree.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #8  
I would consider a four second delay an issue. In fact, any delay when I need to make a panic stop would concern me. Having them work four seconds later at 60 miles per hour means they start after you travel 300 or so feet after stepping on the brakes, what is the point in having them?
Trailer brakes stop when you stop. He's sitting still, so there is no inertia to make the inertia switch work. That's why the hand lever/slide works instantly.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #9  
Trailer brakes stop when you stop. He's sitting still, so there is no inertia to make the inertia switch work. That's why the hand lever/slide works instantly.
Correct. I just did not want anyone to believe there was a delay in operation when moving. As soon as you apply power to the magnet the brake actuator is "drug" in the direction of application. There should be no "delay" in the surge brake application as well.

If you find when you are going down the road there is a 3-4 second delay, then you have an issue to correct.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #10  
There are main types of brake controller: proportional and time-based.

Proportional brake controllers are inertia-based. There is an inertia sensor in the controller: the harder you brake the two vehicle the more the sensor "feels" it and the harder it applies the brakes. There is also usually a gain or "boost" setting that adjusts how sensitive it is to the feeling of deceleration, as well as a maximum brake setting. The controller does not apply the brakes unless the brake pedal has been depressed (usually wired to the switch that activates the brake lights.

Time-based controllers do not sense how hard you are braking. They just sense that the brake pedal has been depressed (again, triggered by the switch that turns on the brake lights). There is sometimes a delay before the trailer brakes are activated (on some controllers, the delay is adjustable), then the trailer brakes are activated, starting out low and ramping up the longer the brake pedal is depressed. Most controllers have some means of adjusting how quickly the braking force ramps up, and setting a limit for the max braking force. If the vehicle is standing still, the controller will not sense any decelleration and will not apply the trailer brakes. (It's possible that some controllers may have some other circuitry which activates the trailer brakes if the pedal has been depressed long enough: such as to help hold the vehicle while sitting at a stop light. I've never really thought to check on mine.)

Time based controllers a usually less expensive, since the electronics are simpler (no need to sense deceleration rates - a timer circuit is simple). Proportional controllers are generally considered superior technology for on-road towing: the harder you hit the town vehicles brakes, the harder the controller applies the trailer brakes. Time based controllers are often preferred by the off-road crowd: it seems the inertial sensor can sometimes get "confused" by bouncing around off road, resulting in widely varying application of the brakes in uneven terrain. A time based controller works the same regardless of terrain variations. For less demanding towing operations on the road a time based controller works fine.

There are also dual-mode controllers which allow you to switch between the two modes. I put one of these on my old Dodge M37 woods truck. Since it's an antique truck without a lot of the modern safety features, I wanted the best brake controller for on-road situations. However, I also use it in the woods, so the ability to switch to a time based brake controller was helpful in that situation.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #11  
Check your gain.
Never checked without driving down road; however, my trailer breaks apply immediately even at speeds below 5MPH.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #12  
There are main types of brake controller: proportional and time-based.

Proportional brake controllers are inertia-based. There is an inertia sensor in the controller: the harder you brake the two vehicle the more the sensor "feels" it and the harder it applies the brakes. There is also usually a gain or "boost" setting that adjusts how sensitive it is to the feeling of deceleration, as well as a maximum brake setting. The controller does not apply the brakes unless the brake pedal has been depressed (usually wired to the switch that activates the brake lights.

Time-based controllers do not sense how hard you are braking. They just sense that the brake pedal has been depressed (again, triggered by the switch that turns on the brake lights). There is sometimes a delay before the trailer brakes are activated (on some controllers, the delay is adjustable), then the trailer brakes are activated, starting out low and ramping up the longer the brake pedal is depressed. Most controllers have some means of adjusting how quickly the braking force ramps up, and setting a limit for the max braking force. If the vehicle is standing still, the controller will not sense any decelleration and will not apply the trailer brakes. (It's possible that some controllers may have some other circuitry which activates the trailer brakes if the pedal has been depressed long enough: such as to help hold the vehicle while sitting at a stop light. I've never really thought to check on mine.)

Time based controllers a usually less expensive, since the electronics are simpler (no need to sense deceleration rates - a timer circuit is simple). Proportional controllers are generally considered superior technology for on-road towing: the harder you hit the town vehicles brakes, the harder the controller applies the trailer brakes. Time based controllers are often preferred by the off-road crowd: it seems the inertial sensor can sometimes get "confused" by bouncing around off road, resulting in widely varying application of the brakes in uneven terrain. A time based controller works the same regardless of terrain variations. For less demanding towing operations on the road a time based controller works fine.

There are also dual-mode controllers which allow you to switch between the two modes. I put one of these on my old Dodge M37 woods truck. Since it's an antique truck without a lot of the modern safety features, I wanted the best brake controller for on-road situations. However, I also use it in the woods, so the ability to switch to a time based brake controller was helpful in that situation.
Good stuff.

Now we have a third system as found on newer trucks. Measures pressure applied to the truck brake system to determine amount of voltage sent to the trailer. They are far superior to the systems you described above.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #13  
Good stuff.

Now we have a third system as found on newer trucks. Measures pressure applied to the truck brake system to determine amount of voltage sent to the trailer. They are far superior to the systems you described above.
Interesting. I have never heard of such a system, but then it's been quite some time sinc eI have been truck shopping (and my last one was a 1951 Dodge M37). IS that type of system OEM only, or is it available in an aftermarket brake controller? I would imagine that installation of an aftermarket system would be much more complex.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #14  
I wouldnt make any determination based on a shop test while sitting still. Hook trailer up and get it moving....then test and make sure brakes are working when truck brakes are applied
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #15  
Interesting. I have never heard of such a system, but then it's been quite some time sinc eI have been truck shopping (and my last one was a 1951 Dodge M37). IS that type of system OEM only, or is it available in an aftermarket brake controller? I would imagine that installation of an aftermarket system would be much more complex.
I don't know when they started using it but the Ford Super duty series with the integrated factory brake controller was using that system at least in 2008
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #16  
Interesting. I have never heard of such a system, but then it's been quite some time sinc eI have been truck shopping (and my last one was a 1951 Dodge M37). IS that type of system OEM only, or is it available in an aftermarket brake controller? I would imagine that installation of an aftermarket system would be much more complex.
I have heard it can be added in kit form to any hydraulic brake system.

Both of my Son's Super Duty trucks have it. My '00 and '02 Super Dutys do not.
 
/ Trailer brakes, is this normal? #17  
My father in law (retired electrical engineer) whipped up this device to check the brakes one at a time on the 4400-pound camper that we share. My 2500HD pickup does not care one bit how effective or balanced the brakes are on it, but he tows it with a jeep liberty sometimes. Or at least, used to, now he just borrows my truck for his own camping trips.

1F2jbXn.jpg


But my cheapo aftermarket brake controller activates instantly even when I'm stopped - as long as the gain is cranked up. Otherwise it has a nice slow time delay for gentle behavior in normal towing. On the road if the SHTF, you should know to reach down and hit the slider anyway.
 

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