Why so hard to replace battery?

[SmallChange]

First time replacing battery on this machine. Manual says "Group 34". That doesn't even come close to fitting. Spent a long time with the auto parts store clerk pulling out batteries and measuring their thickness at the bottom and finally gambled on a smaller Group 24 battery that appeared 1/8" or 3/16" too big. Which it was. I did shoehorn it into the tractor, though I had to spend a while rerouting cables and wires, and it does interfere with the motion of the hood latch (just not enough to prevent opening the hood). CCA says it's above the required minimum, so I guess it'll work. Clerk couldn't find a size number on the battery the tractor came with, which was thinner than any he had anywhere close to the CCA rating.

It's a rectangle. And only one dimension was kind of critical. Would it really have been that hard to include space for it and spec a replacement?

Ms. SmallChange said maybe I should have gone to the dealer. I dunno, maybe she's right.

 

[DonRybak]

SmallChange, always agree with the spouse. You don't have to do it but at least agree. Happy wife happy life. Was the battery in it the original or are you the second owner? Can't believe that the battery didn't show the group size unless the label was missing. Can't go wrong with a battery with a higher CCA than required as long as it fits especially if you live in a colder climate.

 

[seville009]

Sometimes it’s easier to do an internet search of the dimensions of your old battery, just because it may be unique and not in demand much (so probably not carried in stock at parts stores)

 

[SmallChange]

The battery in it was the original. I bought the tractor new. Since there weren't any size numbers that either of us could find on the old battery, I couldn't do an internet search. Note that it was considerably smaller than the Group 34 specified in the manual.

I've just been running a bit, and it started right up. I'm a little nervous because the positive terminal lug is very close to the hold down bar, and torque on the stiff cable assembly could move it into contact with that. I did reroute the cable to minimize that torque, and got a plastic lug cover between the bar and the lug (barely), so I'll revisit my fasteners. Maybe I should grind out a section of the hold down bar.

I am curious what the dealer would have done. I'm guessing that the battery that was in it was some kind of special, and the dealer has more of them. It was a Rocket brand.

 

[WM75Guy]

Messick's online parts shows a Group 34.

 

[Grumpycat]

First time replacing battery on this machine. Manual says "Group 34". That doesn't even come close to fitting. Spent a long time with the auto parts store clerk pulling out batteries and measuring their thickness at the bottom and finally gambled on a smaller Group 24 battery that appeared 1/8" or 3/16" too big.

Just because 24 is less than 34 doesn't mean a 24 is smaller. It is bigger. And a 27 is even bigger.

Charts of BCI Group sizes are readily available: BCI Battery Group Size Chart

Am guessing you confused 34 with 35. The 35 is a bit smaller than a 34.

 

[LD1]

I always look up BCI charts too.

WAY too many choices when it comes to batteries. And in general....I like the biggest battery I can make fit. However....there are ALOT of batteries that are pretty close in size. And when replacing a battery, and looking up sizes....I can usually come of with half a dozen or so that would all fit and work just fine.

Then I look each one up on the parts store website. Sometimes the price difference is astonishing. Or simply which one they have in stock.

For example....my napa currently shows 3 group 24 batteries for $144ea. The SMALLER group 34 batteries are $5 more and they only have one. ANd the even smaller group 35 is another $5 more and they currently dont have any.

But I am confused. Manual calls out for a group 34 battery.....and you put in a group 24 which is the same width and length but 1" taller and now you wonder why its a tight fit?

 

[SmallChange]

But I am confused. Manual calls out for a group 34 battery.....and you put in a group 24 which is the same width and length but 1" taller and now you wonder why its a tight fit?

There is plenty of extra room above and to the sides of the battery. The only dimension that was a problem is the front-to-back dimension, and it's only a problem for the bottom couple inches on the centerline. Toward the rear of the battery compartment there's a small steel angle welded on (and visibly a little crooked), so the battery can't move backward (and if it did it would crowd the front of the radiator anyway). Toward the front on the centerline there's a slot through which the hood latch hook sticks up. The hood latch pivots rearward toward the battery to release the hood. The original battery was about 1/2" thinner front to back and did not interfere with the hood release. The new battery does interfere with the motion of the hood release, so when I pull the hood release lever the latch hits the battery. However, it moves enough to release the hood. It's this dimension primarily that I'm calling tight. I copied and pasted this from the manual just this minute:
12 V, w/ negative ground, 660 cca BCI Group 34
And I showed it to the parts store guy on my phone, and we started pulling batteries off the rack, measuring with my tape measure and looking for one small enough across the bottom. They're generally bigger near the top, especially at the seam, but that doesn't matter at all in my battery compartment. The 34 and 24 and other numbers were printed right on the batteries. We were also excluding ones whose CCA was less than 660.

For the batteries we actually pulled off the shelf and measured, the 24 was maybe 3/16" smaller front to back than the 34, at the bottom. They were DieHard brand "Platinum". I think the one I bought was $239. I was taking a chance because it was still bigger than the space I measured, and they don't accept returns, but it did work eventually.

As a secondary issue, the old battery had the terminals on the top toward the rear of the tractor, but the new one has them on the top toward the front of the tractor and close to the hold down bar. Or of course I could rotate the battery, which would put the terminals far from the hold down bar, but that trades sides for the + and - terminals. I don't think I can make the cables reach far enough to cross. I was able to get them reach far enough to attach to the terminals in the position toward the front, with some fiddling around and by shifting the hold down bar a bit to one side.

I spent a while operating later yesterday and everything worked fine.

 

[5030]

When I renew a battery (which I do every 5 years no matter what), on the first renewal, I look at CCA as well as the largest physical size of battery that will fit in the battery box or tray (in my case) and finally terminal post location (as my cables allow for extra room).

The higher the CCA, the more lead alloy inside the case (and the heavier it is).

 

[Eagle1]

Batteries come with the + and - in both ways. The "R" designation means they are swapped from standard. I like Mopar they are almost always "R" batteries.

 

[5030]

I don't pay much attention to what the label says the brand is as 99% of the batteries sold here are made by 2 companies, Johnson Controls and East Penn Battery. The other 1% are made by Crown Battery. What I look for is the age of the battery. Flooded cell batteries begin their lifetime when they are filled with electrolyte so the older it is (sitting on the shelf), the less time it has a viable life.

I buy all my flooded cell batteries from volume dealers like heavy duty truck shops or discount auto parts places because they have a high volume turnover.

Brand means nothing in reality.

 

[Grumpycat]

When I renew a battery (which I do every 5 years no matter what), on the first renewal, I look at CCA as well as the largest physical size of battery that will fit in the battery box or tray (in my case) and finally terminal post location (as my cables allow for extra room).

The higher the CCA, the more lead alloy inside the case (and the heavier it is).

Not necessarily. Better to shop for "reserve capacity", "Amp-hours" or "Watt-hours". CCA is largely a measure of internal resistance. The less resistance the more current will dump. Is not a measure of how long you can leave the headlights on before the engine will not start.

Lithium starter battery replacements boast outrageous CCA. Really have outrageous CCA. Have very low internal resistance. But also have about 25% of the Ah of a FLA with similar CCA.

Reserve Capacity is time at 25A draw above 10.5V.

In FLA is interesting to compare CCA and RC of Groups 24, 34, 35, and 25.

At OReilly Auto the Super Start Extreme:
Group 24, CCA 725, RC 120 minutes
Group 34, CCA 800, RC 115 minutes
Group 35, CCA 640, RC 95 minutes
Group 25, CCA 625, RC 95 minutes

Note how Group 34 has more CCA but less RC than Group 24. Is my observation this is true across all brands.

 

[Grumpycat]

I don't pay much attention to what the label says the brand is as 99% of the batteries sold here are made by 2 companies, Johnson Controls and East Penn Battery. The other 1% are made by Crown Battery. What I look for is the age of the battery. Flooded cell batteries begin their lifetime when they are filled with electrolyte so the older it is (sitting on the shelf), the less time it has a viable life.

I buy all my flooded cell batteries from volume dealers like heavy duty truck shops or discount auto parts places because they have a high volume turnover.

Brand means nothing in reality.

Brand means everything. Because there are so few manufacturers those manufacturers are well practiced in "built to price". If a brand wants to be the low price leader then the manufacturers have no qualms in building poor quality cheap batteries for that brand. If they did not then someone in China will.

Manufacturers do not warranty the battery, brands do. Some brands are harder to collect on the warranty than others.

Just because all the seams and **** on the battery casing is identical is no assurance the plates inside are the same design or even the same alloy.

 

[SmallChange]

Because there are so few manufacturers those manufacturers are well practiced in "built to price".

Grumpycat's right. Coming from the same place doesn't mean equally good. We can cook a fantastic Thanksgiving dinner in our kitchen, or we can reheat slop in it. There's something kind of sad about a manufacturer turning out junk because the people reselling it want it that way to get to the bottom price, but there's nothing actually wrong or illegal with it.

The point of a brand is that somebody is standing behind the quality and establishing their reputation by it, whether good or bad.

I don't know about batteries in particular -- this is just a thing about maker versus brand.

 

[rScotty]

The first time I replace a battery in any machine I expect to keep, I try to rework the battery mounting and cables so that it can use a standard Group 24 battery.
Always choose AGM. Wet cell batteries are a perpetual maintenance problem whose only advantage is that they are initially less expensive.

 

[Grumpycat]

I prefer AGM but when faced with replacing the Group 25 in Subaru Outback I found it curious that brands which have FLA and AGM never listed the AGM as being suitable for my Subaru. You'd think they would be happy to upsell but for some reason they didn't. Brands which have only AGM were happy to say their battery was suitable.

Ford uses a different battery algorithm for FLA vs AGM. Codeable by the dealer, with Forscan, or other tools. For some reason Ford thinks they need to know if the battery is FLA or AGM, and whether H6, H7, or H8 in capacity, to do the best job keeping the battery healthy. Knowing this and how brands with both FLA and AGM were not listing AGM for the Subaru, I put a Group 24 FLA in the Subaru.

Too lazy to look up the sizes again but I did take the battery tray out of the Subaru to measure before upsizing from 25 to 24. More than enough room, maybe go even bigger but didn't see the need.

 

[rScotty]

I prefer AGM but when faced with replacing the Group 25 in Subaru Outback I found it curious that brands which have FLA and AGM never listed the AGM as being suitable for my Subaru. You'd think they would be happy to upsell but for some reason they didn't. Brands which have only AGM were happy to say their battery was suitable.

Ford uses a different battery algorithm for FLA vs AGM. Codeable by the dealer, with Forscan, or other tools. For some reason Ford thinks they need to know if the battery is FLA or AGM, and whether H6, H7, or H8 in capacity, to do the best job keeping the battery healthy. Knowing this and how brands with both FLA and AGM were not listing AGM for the Subaru, I put a Group 24 FLA in the Subaru.

Too lazy to look up the sizes again but I did take the battery tray out of the Subaru to measure before upsizing from 25 to 24. More than enough room, maybe go even bigger but didn't see the need.

Yes, there's a lot of politics and advertising BS in batteries. The FLA (flooded cell acid) and AGM (paste acid) are essentially interchangeable. The lead/acid chemistries are identical and the chemistry rules. And yes, because of the physical difference between the two there is a slight difference in the most efficient charging slopes between the two. Not much, in the real world it is a few tenths of a volt which means a few minutes difference to reach full charge. But it's enough for advertising to focus on.

The debate centers around the fact that AGMs can be charged most efficiently at just over 14 volts because they don't heat the acid so much. Flooded cell or SLA types are charged at a slightly lower voltage (and longer time) at about 13.5 volts.

Either will work. If you measure the batteries after they set for a few hours since the last charge, either one - if good - will show something close to 12.7 volts.

After all, for many years we only had the old SLA flooded cell types which were charged by a generator/alternator working into a solenoid type voltage regulator. That setup was typically set several volts above where our cars & tractors charge the same battery today. And they worked just fine....other than sometimes overheating the flooded cell acid, needing water added, and always having a wet acid mist from the vents corroding things on top of the battery.