LS XR4145HC starting problem....

[bbusbee57]

Tractor just started acting up not starting about a month ago. At first the dash board would energize, the glow plug indicator would go off and when I turned the key to start I would hear this click and then nothing. Today I thought I would do more trouble shooting trying to narrow down where the problem is so I used my multimeter to check voltages. Before I tried to start it I had 12+ volts at the power side of the start switch, after it failed to start I had around 3+ volts at the power side of the start switch and the dash was completed dead. When I replaced the battery a week ago I cleaned all connections to the battery and the ground to the chassis. I did a ground continuity check and the ground is good from the battery to the frame. Tractor has about 600 hrs and a brand new Interstate 800CCA battery as I mentioned and I keep a trickle charger on it so the battery stays charged.
The tractor has always made what sounded like a duck quacking when I shut it off, its just part of the shut down sequence I guess but it always happened as soon as I shut off the key/engine. Now when I try to start it and it fails, I won't hear that sounds for 10 to 15 minutes after I shut off the key, very strange! The clear problem is the drop in voltage and I have verified that the source of the power is fine so somewhere between the battery source and the ignition switch there must be a component that is failing, question is what? Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

[alexpops]

Any signs of rodents? All fuses good? Could be chewed/shorted wires. Have you checked for a parasitic draw when everything is off? How clean are the terminals/connections? tight? My oem cable connectors were weak & I replaced them with good marine style clamps & ring terminals/lugs on the cable ends. Have you tried a resistance check on the wire to the key switch? from key to solenoid? switch to ground? Will the starter kick over if you jump the solenoid? Will it kick with no load (bench test)? I had a similar issue after flooding from Ian. Battery shot, AND starter was frozen. Replaced both & everything was fine after.

 

[Williy]

Are the cables good not rotted out inside?
You can't see if the cable is rotted on the
inside from the outside, use a ohm meter

willy

 

[Cycledude]

Why did you replace the original battery did it test bad ?
The “Duck Quacking“ sound that’s a complaint I never heard before.

 

[bbusbee57]

Any signs of rodents? All fuses good? Could be chewed/shorted wires. Have you checked for a parasitic draw when everything is off? How clean are the terminals/connections? tight? My oem cable connectors were weak & I replaced them with good marine style clamps & ring terminals/lugs on the cable ends. Have you tried a resistance check on the wire to the key switch? from key to solenoid? switch to ground? Will the starter kick over if you jump the solenoid? Will it kick with no load (bench test)? I had a similar issue after flooding from Ian. Battery shot, AND starter was frozen. Replaced both & everything was fine after.

No rodent issue here, all fuses are good. There is some draw but i keep a trickle charger on the battery so it stays fully charged. Terminal connections are cleaned, 1st thing I did and yes they are tight. Its not a battery connection issue. Yes I did resistance check on the wires to the switch, it is all good. Switch to ground is good. I have not checked switch to solenoid yet, good suggestion. I have not tried to jump start at the solenoid yet. I have not removed the starter to do a bench test, I will try that as well. Thank you. The interesting behavior is that once I engage the start switch to start the dash lights flash and shut down.

 

[bbusbee57]

Are the cables good not rotted out inside?
You can't see if the cable is rotted on the
inside from the outside, use a ohm meter

willy

checked cables/wires, no rotting.

 

[bbusbee57]

Why did you replace the original battery did it test bad ?
The “Duck Quacking“ sound that’s a complaint I never heard before.

original battery did not test bad in terms of voltage but this past winter I did not have the trickle charger on it for several months and with the extreme cold it killed the battery deader than dead, there was nothing. I recharged the battery and while it has 12v I suspect that a cell might have been damaged to the point where it had no power (amps). It was time anyway so I replaced it with a similar battery.

 

[alexpops]

Here's a power side wiring diagram that might help if the starter tests ok.

 

[bbusbee57]

Thank you. I also left you a message on your other post about finding a replacement. Did you end up using the Rare Electrical options?

 

[alexpops]

I ordered both the DB and Rare Electric off of Amazon. One sent me a bushing instead of a starter, the other sent me the proper starter. If you have a NH dealer near you, add MT to the beginning of the current part number & they should be able to check stock. Some Workmasters & Boomers use the same LS MTron engine. Messick's did NOT have stock when I checked.

 

[bbusbee57]

Tried jumping the starter while installed and found that it does activate momentarily until the voltage drops to 3.89v. Put my multimeter on the battery terminal of starter to monitor before and after voltages and I had 12.8v before engaging key then as soon as I turn to start it drops to 3.89 and stays there and instrument cluster dies as well. It acts like its not grounded well but the battery to chassis ground has been cleaned and double checked using ohm meter, I get good tone everywhere on the chassis I checked. Is there another ground somewhere I'm not seeing?

 

[George2615]

The ground cable may be corroded internally where you cant see it. Try connecting a jumper cable from battery to frame and try to start again. Could also be the positive cable with internal breakdown.

 

[alexpops]

Sure sounds like bad cables, loose clamps, corroded connections or an internally shorted starter. Any smoke coming from the starter or cables when you jump the solenoid? do the cables get hot? No way a brand new battery should draw down to <4v on an initial start with new battery & new starter. Does it do the same thing on a bench test? As I remember (might be wrong as Ian's flooding destroyed multiple vehicles' starters so I was working on several different ones) there were two grounds one to the block & one to the frame. Pulling that starter should be easy (unless your Cab is in the way). two bolts, 12 or 13 MM IIRC an extension for the ratchet & flexhead or swivel to thread your way in to the back (block side) bolt & if it won't pull easy after that, a mallet or deadblow with a couple taps to break the corrosion at the bell housing. Could be the bell housing connection giving you the resistance. wire brush before re-attaching, At least that way you can test the starter standing up comfortably instead of bent over or on your knees in the cold & see if it's the starter or something on the way to the starter.

 

[bbusbee57]

Alexpops,
"Sure sounds like bad cables, loose clamps, corroded connections or an internally shorted starter. " Clamps are not loose, I am getting the full 12.8v through the cable to the 100amp fuse and main connector in the line, doesn't that mean the cable it good? These are within 12" of the battery itself. When I do get the full voltage and try to jump the starter using the screw driver technique nothing happens now.

"Any smoke coming from the starter or cables when you jump the solenoid? do the cables get hot? No way a brand new battery should draw down to <4v on an initial start with new battery & new starter." No smoke. Cables don't get hot. Correct on the battery draw down, the battery retains its full voltage, its the down stream components that show the voltage drop like the ignition switch.

"Does it do the same thing on a bench test? As I remember (might be wrong as Ian's flooding destroyed multiple vehicles' starters so I was working on several different ones) there were two grounds one to the block & one to the frame. Pulling that starter should be easy (unless your Cab is in the way). two bolts, 12 or 13 MM IIRC an extension for the ratchet & flexhead or swivel to thread your way in to the back (block side) bolt & if it won't pull easy after that, a mallet or deadblow with a couple taps to break the corrosion at the bell housing. Could be the bell housing connection giving you the resistance. wire brush before re-attaching, At least that way you can test the starter standing up comfortably instead of bent over or on your knees in the cold & see if it's the starter or something on the way to the starter." I have not bench tested it yet. The reason why I have not is because I am not getting the correct voltage down to the S terminal on the solenoid as I should. When I try to jump the solenoid using my screw driver touching the battery terminal to the the S terminal, one time I got it to react for only a second then nothing, now when I try it I get nothing. I figured until I get the full voltage on S terminal there is no point in removing it to bench test because there is a reason why its not performing as it should, its not getting the voltage it needs. Thats just my logic but I could be wrong, the thing that also makes me doubt its a starter caused issue is the sporadic behavior of the instrument panel. If it was just a starter problem I don't think the instrument panel would be acting up the way it is.

Summary, i have full voltage to the battery terminal on the starter but no signal/voltage to the S terminal to activate the starter and the reason for that is because the voltage coming into the ignition switch is 3.9v when it should be 12v and the instrument panel is out but occasionally operates correctly until I try to start the tractor, then it shut offs. Yet the battery output is 12.8v. Something between the battery and the ignition switch is failing but I don't know what those modules or parts would be. I'm going to study the schematic you gave me, thank you, to see if I can figure that out.

 

[gwaldrog]

Here's a power side wiring diagram that might help if the starter tests ok.

Do you have the electric diagrams for safety switches and fuse that feeds them. Thanks

 

[thclimer]

Just another item to consider but the New Holland's at one time had very cheap key switches (lots of plastic with flimsy contacts), I replaced mine with a much more robust NAPA and many issues went away.

 

[alexpops]

Did you load test the battery? Should be able to draw 100-150 Amps for a sustained period without dropping under 11.5. Some of the cheap trickle chargers will cook batteries -- sulphate them or warp plates. You need to load test your battery, because low voltage can cause all kinds of computer problems that make diagnosis impossible. (A battery can hold a surface voltage that looks ok, but if the battery is gone, it won't hold any kind of load) If you don't want to buy a load tester, any auto parts store should be able to load test the battery for you. If the battery load tests ok, then you need to pull the starter to bench test it with the good battery. (Jumper cables to the hot lug & ground to an ear, then jump the solenoid.) If the battery doesn't take a load, replace the battery & see why you cooked the battery. You need Volts AND Amps to get the starter to kick. Dropping to 3.9 v is either the wires/the battery/or the starter. Safety switches are either on or off. Also check both ends of the ground cable. The chassis connection has a tendency to corrode. Clean it up, & coat in dielectric grease.

 

[bbusbee57]

Update, new battery and new ground cable rerouted to the engine block, ground is now solid. Tried starting using ignition switch and got nothing. Went direct to starter and jumped S terminal to hot and the engine turned over fine so starter is good. By the way, I did remove it previously to bench test and it was fine.
I'm getting power to the switch and when I turn the key to the accessory position it energizes the system, dash comes alive like normal then turning it to Start nothing happens.
I jumped the terminals on the back of the switch and nothing happens. I definitely have 12.5v coming to the switch. I'm gonna replace the switch and the battery power cable assembly just in case. Question I have is if jumping the starter to crank motor while ignition switch is on, why wouldn't the engine fire up, it cranks but won't start? Is there something in the circuit that would prevent it from starting by design?

 

[alexpops]

One of the safety switches? Seat, clutch, pto?

 

[thclimer]

If it is cranking but not starting then your issue is that it is probably not getting any fuel.

Is your fuel solenoid being energized?

There are two way to shut a diesel engine off, stop the air from entering the engine or stop the fuel.

I would guess you are not getting power to keep the fuel solenoid energized (open). Possibly it's relay is not working or a safety switch (brake, range lever, PTO, seat,.....) which is typically in the circuit is preventing it from being energized.