Fighting 'Solar Farm' Installation

[Hay Dude]

And the economics of coal really isn’t that good of a deal anymore: mining, rail transport, high maintenance power plants with scrubbers and toxic waste disposal. Our largest in-state power company said they had millions of dollars of savings by switching from coal to a mix of gas and renewables. What was true 20 or even 10 years ago no longer is. It isn’t 1970 anymore.

Yeah, you’re probably right. All the mines are in place, all the railroads are in place, all the power plants are in place, all the labor is in place, all the related infrastructure is in place.

Let’s just scrap all that, seize farm land for windmills, lay millions of miles of electric lines for that and build windmills on mountain tops.



OR why not just burn coal cleanly and use NG is the plants that already exist.
Besides, why would we want to put ourselves in 2nd place by giving all out SPR and fossil fuels to China?

 

[Hay Dude]

There is no such thing as clean coal. That was an industry balloon that was a bust.

Sure there is. We can put a man on the moon 50 years ago, but can’t burn coal or NG cleanly?
Besides, the science to say it causes global warming is disputed.
It’s more expensive, but the costs would come down. Just like your windmills and solar farms.


We can either use what we have here in the ground or fall to second place as the world’s super power behind China. You’re choosing a losing hand by letting them pass us.

 

[Hay Dude]

I always found it interesting that those who are touting gold and silver as excellent investments are the ones selling the gold and silver.

It’s just like any other investment product. You buy low and sell high.
What’s so hard to accept about Gold being marketed to its customer base?

 

[Hay Dude]

I’m willing to bet that China has an economic collapse, not the US. People who bet against the US seldom win that bet.

That was then. This is now. With the dollar dropping out of favor around the world and the imminent collapse of the petro dollar, we are on the verge of economic collapse, too.

Yes, China has their problems, but they are hell bent on passing us as the world’s super power and their currency becoming the world’s currency. If/when that happens, we will be in deep sh___

 

[jyoutz]

Yeah, you’re probably right. All the mines are in place, all the railroads are in place, all the power plants are in place, all the labor is in place, all the related infrastructure is in place.

Let’s just scrap all that, seize farm land for windmills, lay millions of miles of electric lines for that and build windmills on mountain tops.



What not just burn coal cleanly and use NG is the plants that already exist.
Besides, why would we want to put ourselves in 2nd place by giving all out SPR and fossil fuels to China?

The industry sees the cost advantages and therefore they are moving the way they are. Why do you think that my energy costs have remained flat for nearly two decades? Modernization has reduced costs for power producers. And life went on after the coal plants were closed. You can continue to fight for a return to the 1970s or spend your time moving on. And striving to be like what is basically a third world country (socially) isn’t my idea of getting ahead. China is destroying their land and water and human life is expendable there. Yes, let them have their old fashioned coal. We can do better.

 

[jyoutz]

That was then. This is now. With the dollar dropping out of favor around the world and the imminent collapse of the petro dollar, we are on the verge of economic collapse, too.

Yes, China has their problems, but they are hell bent on passing us as the world’s super power and their currency becoming the world’s currency. If/when that happens, we will be in deep sh___

Ok Nostradamus. I guess we’ll see. I’m not betting against the US and we are not on the verge of collapse. You can bet on China.

 

[yanmars]

One State has given the county the right to restrict solar and wind. The City and County can but the landowner cannot sell/lease to the power installer for a large installation. They say the farmers do not want to lose ag ground. Should that be up to the farmer to decide and not the govt and yet the City and County can do it? OK for small units on a residential site.

 

[Hay Dude]

The industry sees the cost advantages and therefore they are moving the way they are. Why do you think that my energy costs have remained flat for nearly two decades? Modernization has reduced costs for power producers. And life went on after the coal plants were closed. You can continue to fight for a return to the 1970s or spend your time moving on. And striving to be like what is basically a third world country (socially) isn’t my idea of getting ahead. China is destroying their land and water and human life is expendable there. Yes, let them have their old fashioned coal. We can do better.

I guess you and 36Turbo just don’t read (eve when I put it in bold) that coal and NG can be burned cleanly. Furthermore, I have stated probably 100+ times that NUKES are the final answer, but they will take decades since the G_________ put a halt to building Nuclear power plants.

But go on misquoting me. It provides a chuckle for me to keep my day fun.

I don‘t want to lose our #1 economic status around the world, but I guess you do.

 

[jyoutz]

I guess you and 36Turbo just don’t read (eve when I put it in bold) that coal and NG can be burned cleanly.

Why? There are more cost effective ways to produce clean energy that digging black rock from deep underground. And natural gas is one of the ways to do this. A natural gas plant is far more efficient and cheaper to operate cleanly than the coal train. That’s why my local utilities closed their coal plants and switched and the coal cars went to the scrapyard , replaced by other freight. Not only is gas cheaper, so are renewables. We did go to the moon, and we did find better ways of producing energy. And nuclear fusion is a technology that is coming. Regardless of what the future holds, the black rock is obsolete. No power companies are building new plants and old ones are closing annually. And yet our power use continues. Imagine that.

 

[LouNY]

Why? There are more cost effective ways to produce clean energy that digging black rock from deep underground. And natural gas is one of the ways to do this. A natural gas plant is far more efficient and cheaper to operate cleanly than the coal train. That’s why my local utilities closed their coal plants and switched and the coal cars went to the scrapyard , replaced by other freight. Not only is gas cheaper, so are renewables. We did go to the moon, and we did find better ways of producing energy. And nuclear fusion is a technology that is coming. Regardless of what the future holds, the black rock is obsolete. No power companies are building new plants and old ones are closing annually. And yet our power use continues. Imagine that.

It is not more cost effective it is only because of absurd governmental regulations that it has been happening.
And my electrical bill certainly isn't the same as it has been for the last 20 or 30 years it is much more.
To the best of my knowledge most of the New Mexico coal power plants were using soft coal which is not "deep" mined.
Also with New Mexico being a major producer of NG and having the pipeline infrastructure in place it makes sense for them. Places without the pipelines and supply that have the infrastructure for coal should keep using it with reasonable controls on it. We as a nation need to develop and produce power at a cost that will allow heavy manufacturing to be redeveloped in this Country, without an economy based on manufacturing products a Nation can not prosper, the so called "service" industry does not produce anything to increase a countries gross national product numbers.

 

[jyoutz]

It is not more cost effective it is only because of absurd governmental regulations that it has been happening.
And my electrical bill certainly isn't the same as it has been for the last 20 or 30 years it is much more.
To the best of my knowledge most of the New Mexico coal power plants were using soft coal which is not "deep" mined.
Also with New Mexico being a major producer of NG and having the pipeline infrastructure in place it makes sense for them. Places without the pipelines and supply that have the infrastructure for coal should keep using it with reasonable controls on it. We as a nation need to develop and produce power at a cost that will allow heavy manufacturing to be redeveloped in this Country, without an economy based on manufacturing products a Nation can not prosper, the so called "service" industry does not produce anything to increase a countries gross national product numbers.

Lou, the local utility boards make the investment decisions for their companies. They aren’t investing in coal and they know their business better than us. That’s why I say coal is obsolete. You can run for a spot on the utilities commission. Otherwise this is a discussion among us who know more about tractors than utility companies.

 

[tradosaurus]

I expect it will be very beneficial for them. Like the clowns that rent your roof for Pennies while they rake in the tax incentives and carbon credits.

But to the ops question. I’d rather live next to solar farm than most other things.

$40k for 40 array solar panel mounted on ground.
$12k tax credit.
$28k cost after credit.

Estimated solar savings over 25 yrs = $109K or $4360/yr. (assumes a 3% electrical cost increase yearly)

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

$40k for 40 array solar panel mounted on ground.
$12k tax credit.
$28k cost after credit.

Estimated solar savings over 25 yrs = $109K or $4360/yr. (assumes a 3% electrical cost increase yearly)

You have to factor in two important things:
"$28k cost after credit."
That $28,000 would either be a loan which you pay interest on or cash which you lose investment interest on.
"Estimated solar savings over 25 yrs = $109K or $4360/yr." That's the most confusing since $4,360/year=$363.33/month. I've never had a $363/month electric bill in my life. I've never had a $200 electric bill. The highest we've ever had was a few months ago having six heaters, dehumidifiers and fans running 24/7 and my bill was $150 which my insurance company paid from a water leak. Our electric bill averages around $100/month. Even if it was $150/month that's $45,000 in 25 years. In 25 years I'll be 95.
$28,000 invested in the S&P 500 if it follows the last 25 years at 7.98% would be $190,690.12. And I wouldn't have unsightly panels, maintenance or damage. As it is now the power company is responsible for everything up to my meter base.
Living here 43 years our total loss of power has been a few days total, most of that loss was a major ice storm and we were in Florida and missed it. Ten years ago I bought a 9kW generator which has less than 3 hours of run time.

 

[tradosaurus]

You have to factor in two important things:
"$28k cost after credit."
That $28,000 would either be a loan which you pay interest on or cash which you lose investment interest on.
"Estimated solar savings over 25 yrs = $109K or $4360/yr." That's the most confusing since $4,360/year=$363.33/month. I've never had a $363/month electric bill in my life. I've never had a $200 electric bill. The highest we've ever had was a few months ago having six heaters, dehumidifiers and fans running 24/7 and my bill was $150 which my insurance company paid from a water leak. Our electric bill averages around $100/month. Even if it was $150/month that's $45,000 in 25 years. In 25 years I'll be 95.
$28,000 invested in the S&P 500 if it follows the last 25 years at 7.98% would be $190,690.12. And I wouldn't have unsightly panels, maintenance or damage. As it is now the power company is responsible for everything up to my meter base.
Living here 43 years our total loss of power has been a few days total, most of that loss was a major ice storm and we were in Florida and missed it. Ten years ago I bought a 9kW generator which has less than 3 hours of run time.

My electric bill averages $260/month which includes charging my EV. Also they are assuming a 3% electric rate increase each year.

I'm not for or against at this point. Just gathering data to make an informed decision.

 

[TN8Man]

From what I read a home solar system lifespan is 25-30 years.

 

[jyoutz]

You have to factor in two important things:
"$28k cost after credit."
That $28,000 would either be a loan which you pay interest on or cash which you lose investment interest on.
"Estimated solar savings over 25 yrs = $109K or $4360/yr." That's the most confusing since $4,360/year=$363.33/month. I've never had a $363/month electric bill in my life. I've never had a $200 electric bill. The highest we've ever had was a few months ago having six heaters, dehumidifiers and fans running 24/7 and my bill was $150 which my insurance company paid from a water leak. Our electric bill averages around $100/month. Even if it was $150/month that's $45,000 in 25 years. In 25 years I'll be 95.
$28,000 invested in the S&P 500 if it follows the last 25 years at 7.98% would be $190,690.12. And I wouldn't have unsightly panels, maintenance or damage. As it is now the power company is responsible for everything up to my meter base.
Living here 43 years our total loss of power has been a few days total, most of that loss was a major ice storm and we were in Florida and missed it. Ten years ago I bought a 9kW generator which has less than 3 hours of run time.

That’s why personal solar systems are not for everybody. I’ve also done the math and it doesn’t pencil out for me. On the other hand, our neighbor down the road has a McMansion with AC and lots of power use. The economics works out for his situation. My bill varies between $150-170, with most of the cost being a deep well pump, and it isn’t worth it to me.

 

[jyoutz]

From what I read a home solar system lifespan is 25-30 years.

That seems to be about average.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

When those two banks recently failed, those accounts were only insured to 250k per FDIC. But, the govt took care of all the funds. Which means they printed more money, which diluted your money. Like adding water to paint in Tom Sawyer, diluting for whitewash. One day they can come out and say your money is useless, as it collapses. But you can scream gold is worthless from every rooftop, and the price will go up.

 

[NorTracNY]

From what I read a home solar system lifespan is 25-30 years.

The panels should last 40+ years, but there is a 0.5% decrease each year. So 95% at 10 years, 90% at 20 years, 82% at 40years. It's the inverters that are about 20 years. So it'll be a few grand to replace that. I decided to "lease" my panels. 20 years with guaranteed production and just a single upfront cost of about $5K. It was a no brainer investment for me. Thank you taxpayers as you paid for most of the cost for my panels. At the end of 20 years, I'll need a new roof put on, so I'll let the owner of the panels take the system out. If they refuse, then I'm stuck with owning the system, which is fine. I'm told it will cost me a little of $1K extra to have the panels removed, and put back after the new roof is done.

 

[two_bit_score]

That would be good but we would need to turn this train around for that to happen and unfortunately so far that's not happening.

It CAN be turned around if we do what needs to be done. The train needs a new engineer and crew.